[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] german russians?

[John Bettger]

This gets off a bit from Volhynia but --- I have  my Grandfather's 1904 Passport. He lived in Waterloo and the passport was issued at Kherson the regional authority. It is a Russian Imperial passport. I think Germans living in Ukraine before the Revolution would be considered German Russians. In fact in during the Imperial Period a letter addressed to Waterloo or Odessa would have been addressed to South Russia. After the abdication of the Tsar  Ukraine became a separate territory and eventually becoming The Socialist Republic of Ukraine. I assume during that period a Ukrainian Passport was issued. Only after the Russian Civil War, which came after the Revolution,  (I think 1919) did the Soviets take over the Ukraine, and not without a great deal of resistance. The starvation of Ukrainians (German Ukrainians and Slavic Ukrainians alike) was Stalin's retribution against the Ukrainians for resisting The Collectivities.  4 million Ukrainians starved to death. Every year Ukraine has a day of memory for The 1932-33 Holodomor (genocide).

Also my wife's people came from the Volhynia area but were Austrian (part of the Hapsburg Empire).

As an interesting side note, during Soviet times Jews carried a Jewish Soviet Passport.

Best Regards
John Leon Bettger
email address  ceo at ametric.com

Researching Waterloo South Russia (Stavki Ukraine) Odessa (city) South Russia (Odessa Ukraine) at 67 Ekaterininskaya Square (at the top of Potemkin Steps) Slowik (near Lodz) Koenigreich Poland/South Prussia, Gruenstadt Bavaria (Worms Germany), Westlau Germany,  Neubrandenburg, Mecklenburg-Strelitz Prussia/Germany

NAMES: Bettger, Boettcher, Huhn, Schindler, Heuter


-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Frank
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:41 PM
To: GABRIELE GOLDSTONE
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] german russians?

I suppose there may be some technical merit to the argument of the Ukrainians but I suspect it is coming more out of a recent (say last 20 years or so) development of pride in their independent nation than out of an understanding of history.  We certainly do not want to become revisionists in order to comply with this desire.  The term is really time, location and context dependent.

Context:
Many people who hear the term automatically assume we are referring to the Germans who went to Russia under the invitation of Catherine the Great.  This of course is not valid.  It applies to those who were assimilated into Russia during the Partitions of Poland as well as those who migrated to Russia after her death.

Time:
The vast majority of our ancestors (other than those assimilated as noted above) migrated to Russia prior to WW I.  Neither Ukraine nor Poland existed in that time period so the term, in my opinion is very valid.  I think this would be my primary argument if they made this suggestion to me.

Location:
Volhynia was split in half between Poland and Russia between the two World Wars.  So are the Germans who still lived there German Poles, German Russians, or German Ukrainians?  It really does simplify things if we can refer to them as German Russians because of their heritage as noted above.  [caveat:  We must remember that they would have carried different passports depending on where they were living at the time.  Not sure if Ukraine issued passports prior to WW II or if those residents would have traveled under Russian ones.]


Jerry



----- Original Message -----
From: GABRIELE GOLDSTONE <ggoldstone1 at shaw.ca>
Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011 9:39 am
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] german russians?
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org

> Hi,
>
> I did a little presentation yesterday to a local ukr. cultural group
> here in Wpg. The topic was 'kulaks' based on research I did for my
> book, The Kulak's Daughter.
>
> It mostly went quite well - except some people were upset that I
> called my family German Russians as opposed to German Ukrainians.
> Perhaps I should be calling them German Soviets? Any comments on this
> sensitive issue? Maybe this has been discussed before.gabe
>
>
> ________________________
> www.gabrielegoldstone.com
>
>
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