[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Wegierka Location

[Jerry Frank]

My apologies to the list for bringing up an old 
inaccurate interpretation for the word 
Rumunki.  Please ignore my references to Rumanian origins.

I will wait for further confirmation from my expert regarding We~gierka.


Jerry



At 08:24 AM 17/01/2009, Jan Textor wrote:

>Jerry,
>
>I do not quite agree with you.  As I read the 
>map, the village name "We~gierki" is a noun, not 
>an adjective, and We~gierki means (Hungarian) 
>plums.  I doubt that the village was settled by 
>Hungarians.  If you take a look into the SGGEE 
>Pedigree Database, you will see that there are 
>32 individuals with German names born in 
>We~gierka, and absolutely none with Hungarian 
>sounding names.  Maybe the colony was established near some plum orchards. :-)
>
>The adjectives are:
>for German = Niemiecki, niemiecka, niemieckie
>for Polish = Polski, polska, polskie
>for Hungarian = We~gierski, we~gierska, we~gierskie
>
>With regard to "Rumunki", which is exclusively 
>used in the region around Lipno, I thought that 
>we had agreed upon that it is derived from the 
>German word "Räumung", which means a clearing (in woods or forests).
>
>Jan Textor
>
>
>
> > Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:47:40 -0700
> > To: Jutta.Dennerlein at t-online.de; ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> > From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca
> > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Wegierka Location
> >
> > Jutta,
> >
> > Please understand that I did not dispute the
> > interpretation of one for whom Polish is the
> > native language. I simply reinterpreted the term
> > in context of usage on the map.
> >
> > I also did not rely solely on GOOGLE. If you
> > would have referred also to the on line Polish
> > cookbook as I did, you would see that the word
> > refers very specifically to the variety of plum
> > known as the Hungarian plum. Specific quote:
> >
> > "We~gierki - Known in Polish as Hungarian plums,
> > they are widely used in Polish cookery . . ."
> >
> > My dictionary also shows that the more generic
> > Polish word for plum is either s~liwka, rodzynka, or gratka.
> >
> > And finally, I am also relying on the map itself
> > which shows adjectival forms as follows (the
> > mailing list might not see the italics but the
> > last word in each term is on the map in italics):
> >
> > Kol. Wia~czemin Niemieckie
> >
> > Wia~czemin Polskie
> >
> > Wia~czemin We~gierki
> >
> > Wymysle Polskie
> >
> > Wymysle Niemieckie
> >
> > Kol. Nowosiodly We~gierki or perhaps Swiniary We~gierki
> >
> > Niemieckie = German
> > Polskie = Polish
> > No reason not to assume that We~gierki = Hungarian (in my opinion)
> >
> > While the italics on the map are not exclusive to
> > the descriptive word, I believe that is the implication here.
> >
> > It is not necessary for the term to apply solely
> > to "Hungarian females" as settlers in this
> > area. The term used in my dictionary to
> > generically describe Hungarians is We~gierski
> > (note the s). Anyone who has studied Polish maps
> > as I have will know even Polish map markers are
> > inconsistent in agreeing on endings of many place
> > names. Minor changes through dropping or adding
> > a letter can make a significant difference in the meaning.
> >
> > Note that in other regions, especially around
> > Lipno but in other places as well, there are
> > place names given with the descriptive adder
> > "Romunki" or similar which, according to well
> > known Polish language expert Fred Hoffmann, implies Rumanian origins.
> >
> > Mr. Hoffmann is well respected in Poland and
> > elsewhere as a Polish etymologist. I will
> > forward the question to him for his
> > interpretation without expressing my opinion. I
> > will report his interpretation to the list and,
> > if I am wrong, I will certainly apologize.
> >
> >
> > Jerry Frank - Calgary, Alberta
> > FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca
> >
> >
> >
> > At 05:01 AM 17/01/2009, Jutta Dennerlein wrote:
> > >Jerry,
> > >
> > >I'm not sure if the results of an English Google research should be
> > >used to 'outnumber' the experience of a native speaker of Polish
> > >(Anna) !
> > >The truth is not the result of 'what most people think' or 'what has
> > >been published most times'.
> > >
> > >Especially not if the Google results mainly turn up 'Hungarian Plum
> > >Dumplings' and 'Hungarian Plum pox virus isolates'.
> > >In both cases 'Hungarian' does not relate to the Plum part of the
> > >term.
> > >
> > >My Polish-German dictionary shows two meanings for Wêgierka: 1.
> > >Ungarin [Hungarian female], 2. Hauspflaume, Zwetschge.
> > >Zwetschgen are exactly the kind of plums which the Niedrunger grew and
> > >dried for selling as prunes.
> > >
> > >But I really would like to hear more about these Hungarian females
> > >settling in the swamps of the Vistula.
> > >Probably a matriarchy society - remains of the very old cultures of
> > >Europe ! Let's Google for it ...
> > >
> > >Sorry for the cynicism
> > >
> > >Jutta Dennerlein
> > >www.upstreamvistula.org
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
> > > > [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of Jerry Frank
> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 3:50 AM
> > > > To: zglinka at wp.pl; ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Wegierka Location
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We have an 1837 map that shows it in the expected
> > > > location. In both cases it shows We~gierka (with
> > > > the diacritic hook below the first e). My Polish
> > > > / English dictionary shows We~gierski = of Hungary or Hungarian.
> > > >
> > > > Your application of the word is probably correct
> > > > for the Hungarian Plum, a type of plum that can
> > > > be readily researched on the Internet using
> > > > GOOGLE. See for example, "Polish Holiday
> > > > Cookery" by Robert Strybel, Page 214 (available in part
> > > > through GOOGLE Books).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jerry Frank - Calgary, Alberta
> > > > FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 06:26 PM 16/01/2009, =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Anna_Zgli=F1ska?= wrote:
> > > > >"Wegierki" is a plural form for polish plums. This is just a kind
> > >of
> > > > >fruit.
> > > > >
> > > > >Did you search on Messtischblatter maps?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Anna Zglinska
> > > > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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Jerry Frank - Calgary, Alberta
FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca