[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 41, Issue 7
verna hutchinson
vhutchin at mts.net
Fri Oct 6 06:03:59 PDT 2006
Hi All;
Besides doing my Volhynian ancestry and finding a new born child named after
a deceased sibling, I've also been doing my husband's English roots back to
the 1400s and I've come across the same naming pattern of the latest newborn
taking the name of their deceased sibling.
I'm still looking for more long lost Kuhl & Janke cousins from Volhynia!
Have a Happy Thanksgiving weekend everyone--we have much to be thankful for-
I, for one, am thankful that our ancestors were given the foresight to come
to Canada---
Regards,
Verna
-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
[mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of
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Sent: October 6, 2006 4:50 AM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 41, Issue 7
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Today's Topics:
1. Tidbits of Info (Robert Norenberg)
2. Re: Tidbits of Info (Donne, Alexsana)
3. Re: Tidbits of Info (Jerry Frank)
4. Re: Tidbits of Info (Jeff Krebs)
5. Re: Tidbits of Info (Jerry Frank)
6. Re: Tidbits of Info -- reuse of names (Myron E. Williams)
7. Names, names, names. . . (Otto)
8. Re: Names, names, names. . . (G?nther B?hm)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Norenberg <robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca>
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Tidbits of Info
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID: <20061005205025.35694.qmail at web54512.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hi Jerry
I saw a comment you made at some web site which said
it was common practice to name a child after a
previous dead child with the same name.I found this
very helpful and it answered some puzzles for me. I
would like to know how you knew this. Is it something
you read or just knew due to your heritage? It's
little clues like this that can be very helpful. If it
is something you read, there may be other helpful
clues as well.
Regards Robert Norenberg
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:32:16 -0700
From: "Donne, Alexsana" <ADonne at sara.com>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Tidbits of Info
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Message-ID:
<7D0D2D68DE274C49B64E47120C0954590D467C at MERCURY.sarainc.sara.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Is there a set of guidelines somewhere for beginning genealogists? I
discovered naming a child after a previous child by accident in my
searches, along with certain family names being handed down over and
over and over again.
Thanks,
Lexi
-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
[mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-
Hi Jerry
I saw a comment you made at some web site which said
it was common practice to name a child after a
previous dead child with the same name.I found this
very helpful and it answered some puzzles for me. I
would like to know how you knew this. Is it something
you read or just knew due to your heritage? It's
little clues like this that can be very helpful. If it
is something you read, there may be other helpful
clues as well.
Regards Robert Norenberg
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 15:36:17 -0600
From: Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Tidbits of Info
To: Robert Norenberg <robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca>
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID: <b95473b968d2.b968d2b95473 at shaw.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Robert -
I don't recall if I was told about it first or if I first encountered it in
my research. I don't remember seeing the practice very much in the Volhynia
extractions I did but it was very common in the early Russian Poland records
I have researched and in the Wuerttemberg records I have encountered going
all the way back to c.1560.
It may be that the practice is most popular in certain regions. I have
found numerous examples in my Schwabisch maternal line but none in my
paternal line of unknown origins. I don't know if it was common practice in
Prussian regions. Perhaps someone else can advise further about that.
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Norenberg <robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca>
Date: Thursday, October 5, 2006 2:50 pm
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Tidbits of Info
> Hi Jerry
>
> I saw a comment you made at some web site which said
> it was common practice to name a child after a
> previous dead child with the same name.I found this
> very helpful and it answered some puzzles for me. I
> would like to know how you knew this. Is it something
> you read or just knew due to your heritage? It's
> little clues like this that can be very helpful. If it
> is something you read, there may be other helpful
> clues as well.
> Regards Robert Norenberg
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 16:39:19 -0600
From: Jeff Krebs <jeffkrebs at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Tidbits of Info
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID:
<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAA31soOuEvYU+GwgjhbhSzDcKAAAAQ
AAAA7idHtagRPUmYNb/DOvVg4wEAAAAA at shaw.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
All
One line of my family came to Canada from Galicia. Through the records I've
received from Manfred Daum, the practice appeared to be quite common, at
least in my family. In some cases, the same name appeared 3 times in a row
which really confused me.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
[mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Jerry
Frank
Sent: October 5, 2006 3:36 PM
To: Robert Norenberg
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Tidbits of Info
Robert -
I don't recall if I was told about it first or if I first encountered it in
my research. I don't remember seeing the practice very much in the Volhynia
extractions I did but it was very common in the early Russian Poland records
I have researched and in the Wuerttemberg records I have encountered going
all the way back to c.1560.
It may be that the practice is most popular in certain regions. I have
found numerous examples in my Schwabisch maternal line but none in my
paternal line of unknown origins. I don't know if it was common practice in
Prussian regions. Perhaps someone else can advise further about that.
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Norenberg <robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca>
Date: Thursday, October 5, 2006 2:50 pm
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Tidbits of Info
> Hi Jerry
>
> I saw a comment you made at some web site which said
> it was common practice to name a child after a
> previous dead child with the same name.I found this
> very helpful and it answered some puzzles for me. I
> would like to know how you knew this. Is it something
> you read or just knew due to your heritage? It's
> little clues like this that can be very helpful. If it
> is something you read, there may be other helpful
> clues as well.
> Regards Robert Norenberg
>
>
_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 16:44:34 -0600
From: Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Tidbits of Info
To: "Donne, Alexsana" <ADonne at sara.com>
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID: <baa133ba9873.ba9873baa133 at shaw.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Lexi:
Trying to establish rules or even guidelines regarding naming practices can
be very tricky - perhaps even unwise. Just when you think you have found a
pattern, the rule gets broken. If you rely too much on the pattern, your
research can be slowed or may contain errors.
The example currently under discussion occurs but never with consistency.
It may change from one generation to another, from one family branch to
another; or may skip a generation or two.
When you encounter anomalies, it is probably best to simply question them in
a forum such as this. Chances are that someone else has "been there" and
you will get an explanation.
In spite of my caution, I would encourage others to participate in this
discussion by letting us know certain practices that you may have uncovered
in your German research.
Jerry Frank
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donne, Alexsana" <ADonne at sara.com>
Date: Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:32 pm
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Tidbits of Info
> Is there a set of guidelines somewhere for beginning genealogists? I
> discovered naming a child after a previous child by accident in my
> searches, along with certain family names being handed down over and
> over and over again.
>
> Thanks,
> Lexi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
> [ger-poland-volhynia-
>
> Hi Jerry
>
> I saw a comment you made at some web site which said
> it was common practice to name a child after a
> previous dead child with the same name.I found this
> very helpful and it answered some puzzles for me. I
> would like to know how you knew this. Is it something
> you read or just knew due to your heritage? It's
> little clues like this that can be very helpful. If it
> is something you read, there may be other helpful
> clues as well.
> Regards Robert Norenberg
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 18:08:35 -0500
From: "Myron E. Williams" <myronwms at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Tidbits of Info -- reuse of names
To: Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca>
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID: <45259073.6010208 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
It is fairly common practice among American immigrants in the 19th &
20th centuries.
Myron E. Williams
Crossville, TN
Jerry Frank wrote:
>Robert -
>
>I don't recall if I was told about it first or if I first encountered it in
my research. I don't remember seeing the practice very much in the Volhynia
extractions I did but it was very common in the early Russian Poland records
I have researched and in the Wuerttemberg records I have encountered going
all the way back to c.1560.
>
>It may be that the practice is most popular in certain regions. I have
found numerous examples in my Schwabisch maternal line but none in my
paternal line of unknown origins. I don't know if it was common practice in
Prussian regions. Perhaps someone else can advise further about that.
>
>
>Jerry
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robert Norenberg <robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca>
>Date: Thursday, October 5, 2006 2:50 pm
>Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Tidbits of Info
>
>
>
>>Hi Jerry
>>
>> I saw a comment you made at some web site which said
>>it was common practice to name a child after a
>>previous dead child with the same name.I found this
>>very helpful and it answered some puzzles for me. I
>>would like to know how you knew this. Is it something
>>you read or just knew due to your heritage? It's
>>little clues like this that can be very helpful. If it
>>is something you read, there may be other helpful
>>clues as well.
>> Regards Robert Norenberg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
>Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
>Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 01:10:25 -0400
From: Otto <otto at schienke.com>
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Names, names, names. . .
To: S G G E E <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Message-ID: <CB667F79-6468-4458-9650-6442574ABC54 at schienke.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
This may help.
Our understanding is an art, not a science. Being an art, we are
practitioners exchanging technique. I always welcome pointers and
helpful bits from everyone. We remain, Man, the namer.
I have a cousin in Houston I share my surname with, a cousin that has
the same first given name as I but his second given name is not Otto,
his second given name is my younger brother's first given name.
Cousin Richard and I have come to a conclusion; the colonists
originally had a Name Book shared by the villages, a book that
eventually was destroyed in a fire at the beginning of the
colonization. . . that is, all but one page of names that were
memorized and used by them as they dispersed throughout Eastern Europe.
We were only kidding, yet it would not be difficult to believe it was
so as one becomes involved in microfilm research.
As already stated, cultural or social patterns are iffy. We, who live
in a global world and information rich society, must first
familiarize ourselves with living conditions of the time period in
question. Traveling with a horse and wagon would limit one to places
fifteen miles distant.(24 kilometer) One half day to travel there,
one half day to travel home before dark. At four miles an hour by
horse or foot, it amounts to seven and one half hours of non-stop
travel. (really 8 hrs. - 1/2 hr. alloted for a McDonald's stop)
15 mi./24 km. distance is a behavioral pattern based on self-
preservation. When one left an immediate familial cluster, one faced
the then present dangers of travel. Think on this.
Farming clusters were dependent on each other for survival. Birthing,
Planting, Harvesting, Dying. A single loss was a loss to everyone.
People did not live in a village. They were the village.
That brings us to the foremost pattern.
-"The Cluster Effect". . . generated by survival based behavior.
I cannot claim credit for the observation; the term, "Cluster Effect"
was used in a genealogical lecture I attended in Chicago many years
back. The lecturer was Stephen Barthel. (Posen/West Preussen-Steve's
Dad was German, his mother Polish) At that time Steve was head of the
European Eastern Territories records at the Main LDS library in Salt
Lake City. I heard he eventually became head of the LDS library but
that remains unsubstantiated on my part.
The following are my observations based on working with Lutheran
records-Catholic records/patterns differ.
Little clusters are affected by the Big World.
The Cluster Effect also generates insight to the past. Patterns
become visible.
When extracting 'names' from village microfilm records, extract both
paternal and maternal names. Extract witness and godparent names.
(usually relatives until you prove out differently-think 'clan')
Extract names of family friends-they may well be relatives a hundred
years distant.
Create a graphic diagram to visual the cluster. I call it my 'bunch
of grapes'. Usually where I find a 'grape', I know the 'bunch' is
close by.
-Each cluster will vary a bit. Life is fluid.
I've noted a trendy pattern regarding given names, say in 50-100 year
increments in clusters. Near the end of the 1600's and the beginning
of the 1700's, around the Danzig area, 'Martin' (undoubtedly Luther
influence) and 'Regina' (L.-queen-a female sovereign) were popular.
Reviewing film of that period, it seems every third person is a
Martin or Regina. As they migrated the given name 'Jacob' became
popular. (a bible-based leader-type character that traveled and
prospered) Michael as a given name became popular. (now they were
invoking the great archangel's power during times of turmoil) There
are 'Friedrich' from "der alter Fritz the Great" period in history
(an indicator) There are 'Lousia' after the beloved Prussian queen.
(an indicator)
Catholic girls usually have a 'Mary' in there somewhere, and Lutheran
girls an 'Anna'. (indicators)
-Become familiar with your Cluster's given name trends. (You'll come
upon an earlier cluster and notice the given names are
similar...Hmmm? It is in the names...)
-Itemize all of the 'sisters' in a given family and their marriage
surnames.
-Sisters will have more effect on the shape and direction of a cluster.
-Individuals of the cluster lost through war or disease, individuals
childless, or individuals with lost children, may be commemorated by
naming offspring after them to keep their name and memory alive.
(loss of a cluster member left a saddening void)
The locus of the cluster was undoubtedly their local Chapel or
Parish. Their 'belief structure' held them together.
-Research the life of the Pastor of the Parish. (I consider this
very important)
He was the door to the big world for the farming clusters.
Where was he born? What seminary did he graduate from? Is this his
first Parish assignment? If not, what Parishes had he served
previously? He was the one that would indicate to his flock, "Come,
this way," or indicate, Go, that way." Knowing this may open the
door to where the cluster came from or went. Based on the pastor's
education, he may also have been an influence in spelling changes of
surnames, updating them to his present day accepted spellings.
. . . Otto
" The Zen moment..." wk. of September 24, 2006-
________________________________
"Wisdom... has a corrosive effect on
complications."
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 11:49:35 +0200
From: G?nther B?hm <GHBoehm at ish.de>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Names, names, names. . .
Cc: S G G E E <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Message-ID: <452626AF.8050300 at ish.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Otto schrieb:
>Catholic girls usually have a 'Mary' in there somewhere, and Lutheran
>girls an 'Anna'. (indicators)
>
Otto,
I agree with all you wrote and appreciate it very much.
Just one correction: 'Anna' (the mother of Mary) is a catholic indicator.
Typical Lutheran names were - out of Martin of course - Gottfried,
Gottlieb, Christian ("the christianized"), Gustav (Gustav Adolf, king of
Sweden) and a lot of old-testamentarian names like Adam, Daniel, Jonas
and Elias.
Guenther
------------------------------
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