[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Alternative Surnames

[Gary Warner]

Jutta,

Thanks for your reply.   A few comments on your questions below.

Gary


At 03:23 AM 11/03/06, Jutta Dennerlein wrote:
>Gary,
>
>sorry for the late reply - and also sorry for causing so many
>irritation and sudden activities within SGGEE.

No, it is always good to talk about things that are puzzling.   It 
was a similar discussion that actualy caused the Alternate Surname 
List to be written.

>Thank you for going through the effort of writing in capital letters -
>but I think the listserve handles the usual ">" for citations pretty
>competent.
>
>I do have a good understanding of your Pedigree database difficulties,
>but I must say that my understanding of the Alternate Surname list has
>not been that of being a help-file for automated database merges.

>Sorry for that misunderstanding, but I really thought that the target
>group of this list were living people who got stuck with their
>genealogy and who would be glad for the hint that they might also look
>for Grabowski if the missing Buchholz never turned up.

The list currently serves both as an aid to me in doing merges, and 
also an attempt to let people know that there is no one way to spell 
any name.   We each have our idea of how our own family surnames 
should be spelled.   I think we even consciously pick the version of 
our surname that most appeals to us.   Too bad that the pastors who 
made the records could not spell, did not hear the name correctly, or 
had their own favorite way of spelling a surname.

>  ... snip ...
> > I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE THE TIME TO PURSUE EACH AND EVERY NAME ON THAT
>LIST TO CONFIRM THAT THEY ARE
> > ALTERNATES, BUT THE TIME I TAKE DOING MERGES DOES NOT ALLOW ME THE
>TIME TO DO THAT.
>  ... snip ...
>
>I don't want to go into details, I just want to mention that there is
>some significance in the order of doing things. What about checking
>that names are true alternates before adding them to the list and
>before you start merging?

I presently do merges virtually every day of the year.   I have not 
determined exactly how many names that I merge or attempt to merge 
each year, but I suspect it is something like 200,000 names a 
year.    I would really like to do as you suggest, but since the 
alternates simply appear as a result of the merging process (ie., two 
people that are obviously the same person have mothers with different 
surnames is the main source of the alternates), my momentum is not 
broken if I just keep going.    I do email each submitter of data 
when the alternates do not seem to be even remotely connected.   It 
is my hope that when I send out data to someone after a merge, that 
it will be them who pursues the correctness of the data.

Please understand that I do not manually create the Alternate Surname 
list anymore.     That is done by Antje Mass in Germany.   She 
annually takes the printout of the master surname list from our 
database and lists each name where there is an alternate spelling.

I would love to create a clean list of true alternates, but I simply 
do not have the time left in my life to do that.   In addition, for 
someone to undertake the task properly, the person would have to be 
fluent in both German and Polish, since very often the alternates are 
the same word in each language.   I do not possess such language 
skills, but would welcome someone who does posess such skills 
undertaking the preparation of such a list.    If that were done, 
then our present list could simply fade away.

>Thank you for the many examples of name changes in your family. I
>think there is no doubt that there are name changes and different
>spellings of family names. My opinion is, that at least the rather
>exotic name changes need an explanation and some information about the
>source of this information so people can decide if this exotic name
>change is also relevant for their family research or not. But since
>your computer program probably doesn't read footnotes, the information
>about the sources is certainly irrelevant as far as the SGGEE
>Alternate Surname list is concerned.

The Alternate Surname List is a Word document, so it is certainly 
possible to create footnotes for each alternate.   The problem is, as 
noted above, who has both the knowledge and the time to undertake 
that job?    I suspect that in our small group that there might be 
only a hal-dozen or so people that have the skills to do this.

>I did not want to leave you without an answer to your comprehensive
>reply to my question. But I somehow got the feeling that this mailing
>list might not be the place where discussions like this one are
>welcome.

No, the only questions that are bad questions, are the ones that do 
not get asked.   I appreciate your input.   Hopefully someone will 
now step forward to undertake the job you have noted is needed.

>So let's better get back to normal and talk about the more pleasant
>issues ...
>
>Kind regards
>
>Jutta Dennerlein
>www.upstreamvistula.org
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gary Warner [mailto:gary at warnerengineering.com]
>Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 10:51 PM
>To: Jutta Dennerlein; ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
>Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Alternative Surnames
>
>
>Jutta,
>
>When I started doing the merges of data from various sources in 1998,
>it was my goal to merge everything perfectly.   I soon learned that
>everyone else had the same incomplete data that I have in my own
>personal data, in many cases much worse than my own personal data.
>During those first years of merging of data, I can say that I was
>truly dumfounded the first time the merging of names led me to the
>point where a Schwarz had to be the same as a Czarnecki for the merge
>to be completed.    That experience was a real eye opener for me, even
>though I must have knowN intuitively that the same name (the color
>black in this case) would take a different form in two different
>languages.
>
>I do not think I can say with enough emphasis that I too would like
>the Alternate Surname list to include only true alternates.    If the
>list included only true alternates, then my job of merging the data in
>the Master Pedigree database would be MUCH easier, but as is usual, it
>seems, attaining that which is desirable is not usually easy, and that
>is the case here.   I will try to answer your questions below in CAPS,
>not because I am speaking above a normal voice, but because the
>listserve strips out all other special formatting.
>
>Gary Warner
>SGGEE
>
>  At 05:24 AM 10/22/06, Jutta Dennerlein wrote:
>
>Gary,
>
>does your answer to Annegret mean, that SGGEE is broadcasting the
>information that the names "Wojciechowicz" and "Krause" are variations
>of the same family name, that there actually is no proper source for
>this information ("the Turek and Konin marriages of the 1840s" are
>quite a big pile of records), that it anyway might be a marriage based
>"name change" and that the information might also be an error of one
>or two of your larger submitters of data?
>
>
>THE ALTERNATE SURNAMES LISTED IN THIS CASE ARE IN FACT BASED ON A
>SPECIFIC SET OF MARRIAGES, AND THE INTERPRETATIONS OF TWO OF OUR MORE
>ACTIVE SUBMITTERS AS TO WHAT THOSE RECORDS SAY.
>
>IF YOU WOULD LIKE THE SPECIFIC REFERENCES, AND EVEN A COUPLE OF EMAILS
>FROM THOSE SUBMITTERS THAT DISCUSS WHY THE NAMES WERE DIFFERENT, I CAN
>SUPPLY THEM TO ANYONE WHO WANTS TO INVESTIGATE THIS MATTER TO GENERATE
>A THIRD OPINION.
>
>I WOULD IN FACT BE DELIGHTED IF SOMEONE WOULD TAKE ON THAT TASK, AS IT
>WOULD EITHER CONFIRM THAT THE NAMES ARE ALTERNATES OR THAT THEY ARE
>NOT (IN WHICH CASE THEY WOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE ALTERNATE SURNAMES
>LIST).   I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE THE TIME TO PURSUE EACH AND EVERY NAME
>ON THAT LIST TO CONFIRM THAT THEY ARE ALTERNATES, BUT THE TIME I TAKE
>DOING MERGES DOES NOT ALLOW ME THE TIME TO DO THAT.
>
>YOU ARE CORRECT THAT THE MATCHING OF THESE NAMES MIGHT BE A TOTAL
>ERROR.    I THINK, HOWEVER, THAT YOU WILL AGREE THAT SHOWING KRAUSE
>FIRST IN THE ACTUAL DATABASE (AS I AM DOING IN THE MASTER PEDIGREE
>DATABASE) IS THE APPROPRIATE WAY TO SHOW WHICH IS THE MORE GERMAN OF
>THE TWO NAMES.    IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT WOJCIECHOWICZ IS
>ENTIRELY A POLISH NAME, AND MAY HAVE NO GERMAN EQUIVALENT.    MY GOAL
>IN LISTING THE NAMES TOGETHER IS TO IMPROVE THE CHANCES OF MATCHING UP
>DATA THAT MAY BE THE SAME, SINCE A MERGE USING SOUNDEX WILL MATCH UP
>"KRAUSE" AND "KRAUSE OR WOJCIECHOWICZ", BUT NOT "KRAUSE" AND
>"WOJCECHOWICZ".
>
>I REALIZE THAT THIS PROCEDURE MAY IN FACT INTRODUCE SOME ERRORS BY
>COMBINING NAMES THAT ARE NOT REALLY ALTERNATES, BUT MY PURPOSE IS TOO
>MAKE OUR MEMBERS AWARE THAT THEY NEED TO LOOK FOR ALTERNATIVE NAMES
>WHEN THEY ARE LOOKING AT ANY DATA, AND SUCH A LIST SERVES THAT PURPOSE
>
>
>It had always been my impression that there are quite a lot of rather
>questionable "name changes" in the Alternate Surnames text file (how
>did "Gurski change to Nierenberg" or "Kopp to Schumacher"). But I
>always assumed that the basic meaning of this file was to help people
>in their research.
>
>
>YOU ARE CORRECT THAT THE BASIC PURPOSE OF THE LIST IS TO ALERT OUR
>MEMBERS TO THE POSSIBILITY OF ALTERNATES TO THE SURNAMES THAT THEY ARE
>ACCUSTOMED TO SEEING.   I SUSPECT THAT THE TWO NAMES YOU MENTION IN
>THE PARAGRAPH ABOVE ARE CHANGES LIKE MY OWN FAMILY NAME- MY FATHER WAS
>BORN A JAEGER, BUT FOR REASONS THAT ONLY HE KNOWS FOR SURE, HE CHANGED
>IT TO WARNER.     THERE IS NO WAY THAT I CAN REMOVE SUCH CHANGES FROM
>THE LIST WITH CERTAINTY, SINCE I DO NOT KNOW THE PARTICULARS OF THE
>REASON FOR THE CHANGE- FOR INSTANCE, I SUSPECT THAT CERTAIN GERMAN
>NAMES REGULARLY BECAME CERTAIN UNRELATED ENGLISH NAMES UPON ARRIVAL IN
>THE U.S.A. OR CANADA, AND THAT FACT MAY BE OF USE TO SOME OF OUR
>MEMBERS.
>
>THEN THERE ARE THE NAMES LIKE MY FATHER'S FATHER.    HE WAS BORN A
>JAEGER (IT WOULD APPEAR), BUT WHILE SERVING IN THE RUSSIAN ARMY, HE
>BECAME A GEIGER (OBVIOUSLY NOT AN EQUIVALENT NAME, BUT ACCORDING TO A
>FRIEND WHO SPEAKS RUSSIAN THEY SOUND SIMILAR IN RUSSIAN).    THAT
>GEIGER NAME ALSO APPEARED IN HIS RUSSIAN PASSPORT, ON ALL PAGES EXCEPT
>FOR THE PAGE WHERE HE WENT TO THE GERMAN CONSULATE IN ODESSA, WHERE
>AGAIN HE WAS A JAEGER.
>
>THEN THERE WAS MY GREAT-GRANDFATHER GEIGER WHO HAD SIX CHILDREN IN
>POLAND, ALL OF THEM WITH THE GEIGER SURNAME, EXCEPT ONE WHO IS LISTED
>IN THE PARISH RECORDS WITH THE JAEGER SURNAME.
>
>
>But if people who are desperately looking for a "Krause" ancestor are
>sent back to the already researched church books to research
>Wojciechowicz (and all the spelling variations of this name), I'm
>worried that this might delay their research unnecessarily. Especially
>since there seems to be no serious reason at all to link and publish
>this name change in the Alternate Surnames list.
>
>
>I WISH THAT THERE WAS A SIMPLE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION ABOVE, BUT
>WITHOUT OTHER MEMBERS SEARCHING OUT THE RECORDS TO PROVE OR DISPROVE
>THE ALTERNATE SURNAME LIST, I AM FORCED TO SHOW THE ALTERNATES IN THAT
>LIST, BECAUSE IT BEST SUITS MY PURPOSE OF MERGING NAMES THAT MIGHT BE
>THE SAME.
>
>TO BE SURE, WE ARE NOT SHOWING ALL ALTERNATES (MY WARNER OR JAEGER
>SURNAME IS NOT THERE), BUT I AM NOT AN EXPERT AT LANGUAGES, SO I
>BELIEVE I WOULD BE UNWISE TO ELIMINATE ALTERNATES THAT MAY NOT REALLY
>BE ALTERNATES.
>
>YES, I REALIZE THAT THERE MAY BE ERRORS, BUT POSTING THE ERRORS DID
>JUST WHAT WAS INTENDED- IT CAUSED ANNEGRET KRAUSE TO ASK THE QUESTION.
>NOW, WILL SOMEONE PURSUE THIS FURTHER TO RESOLVE IF THE ALTERNATE IS
>REALLY CORRECT?
>
>
>There is a rather longish "disclaimer" at the beginning of the list,
>that actually says, that the list also contains all the spelling
>errors of your Pedigree database. I'm deeply worried about that! After
>all some people are quoting this Alternate Surnames list and giving it
>as the source of their information. In this way some people's spelling
>errors (which happen all the time and are just human) are broadcasted
>as new "genealogical facts" and this is ridiculous!
>
>
>WHEN WE FIRST CREATED THE ALTERNATE SURNAME LIST, IT WAS WITH THE
>INTENT TO SHOW THE STARTLING ALTERNATES, LIKE SCHWARZ BEING EQUAL TO
>CZARNECKI, AND OTHER SIMILARLY STRANGE (AT LEAST TO ME) COMBINATIONS.
>
>OVER TIME, WE ADDED MOST OF THE ALTERNATES THAT OUR MEMBERS HAVE
>SUBMITTED, WITHOUT TRYING TO CORRECT THE SPELLING, SINCE THAT AIDED
>THEM IN SEARCHING OUT THEIR FAMILY BY SEEING ALTERNATES TO THEIR
>SPELLING.   ALSO, OFTEN NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE CORRECT SPELLING OF A
>NAME IS.
>
>REMEMBER THAT SPELLING DID NOT REALLY START TO STANDARDIZE UNTIL THE
>LATE 1800S IN THE U.S.A. (SOME OF OUR SCHOLARLY READERS WILL LIKELY
>PROVIDE US THE DATE WHEN DICTIONARY USE BECAME WIDESPREAD).   PRIOR TO
>THAT TIME, THE PASTOR WROTE THE NAME THAT HE THOUGHT HE HEARD, OR
>WROTE THAT NAME THAT HE THOUGHT HE KNEW HOW TO SPELL, EVEN WHEN HE
>HEARD THE NAME CORRECTLY.     I SUSPECT THAT SOME OF THE PASTORS WERE
>VERY BAD SPELLERS INDEED, OR JUST PLAIN NOT CAREFUL, AS I HAVE SEEN
>RECORDS WHERE THE SURNAME WAS SPELLED THREE DIFFERENT WAYS IN THE SAME
>RECORD.
>
>AS A MEANS OF PARTIALLY ALLEVIATING YOUR CONCERNS ABOUT VARIANT
>SPELLINGS, WE HAVE RECENTLY COMPARED ALL OF THE ALTERNATE SURNAMES IN
>THE LIST TO THE ON-LINE VERSION OF THE GERMAN WHITE PAGES TO SEE WHICH
>VARIANT IS THE MOST COMMON TODAY.   THOSE CHANGES ARE ALREADY
>REFLECTED IN THE DATABASE ON THE WEBSITE, BUT NOT YET REFLECTED IN THE
>ALTERNATE SURNAME LIST.   ANTJE MASS IS CURRENTLY WORKING TO UPDATE
>THAT LIST.
>
>I AM SORRY IF ANYONE IS TAKING OUR ALTERNATE SURNAME LIST AS FACTS.
>I THINK THE VERY NATURE OF THE LIST, WITH ALL OF THE ALTERNATES, IS
>PROOF THAT WE CANNOT BE SURE WHICH NAME IS CORRECT.   AS YET ANOTHER
>EXAMPLE FROM MY FAMILY (WHICH I SUSPECT REPRESENTS QUITE A LOT OF OUR
>MEMBERS), ONE OF MY SURNAMES IS POSSIBLY DUERR.   I HAVE SEEN IT
>WRITTEN AS
>
>Duerr or Dyr or Dyrr or Duhr or Deren or Dicer or Doehr or Doerr or
>Dirr or Dohr or Duehr,
>
>AND I HAVE NO IDEA WHICH OF THOSE SPELLINGS, IF ANY OF THEM, ARE
>"CORRECT".
>
>
>The Polish and the German language are using diacritic letters.
>Diacritic letters indicate how a letter or the word in the context is
>pronounced. Most of the alleged changes of German names in Polish
>church books are based on similar pronunciation of differently spelled
>names. Therefore the German and Polish diacritic letters are
>essential.
>An Alternate Surname list can never handle name changes properly if
>the diacritic letters are omitted!
>
>
>YES, IT WOULD BE NICE IF WE COULD HAVE THE DIACRITICAL CHARACTERS ON
>THE WEBSITE.   I PERSONALLY HAVE SEEN MANY INSTANCES WHERE THE POLISH
>L WITH A SLASH THROUGH IT HAS BEEN MISINTERPRETED AS A T, SO I FULLY
>APPRECIATE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.
>
>THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION, HOWEVER, IS THAT ALMOST NONE OF US KNOW
>HOW TO ENTER A SIMPLE GERMAN UMLAUT IN A WORD, MUCH LESS ENTER A
>POLISH DIACRITICAL CHARACTER, SO IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR US TO
>SHOW SUCH CHARACTERS IN THE INTERACTIVE PORTION OF OUR WEBSITE,
>ESPECIALLY IF WE WERE USING THEM IN THE SEARCH CRITERIA.
>
>THEN THERE IS THE REALITY THAT MOST OF US HAVE INHERITED OUR DATA VIA
>ORAL HISTORY OR DATA TRANSCRIBED FROM ANOTHER PERSON WHO DID NOT KNOW
>WHAT TO DO WITH THE DIACRITICAL CHARACTERS, SO NONE OF THOSE
>CHARACTERS ARE IN OUR DATA NOW.    EVEN THOSE OF US LUCKY ENOUGH TO
>HAVE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS DO NOT USUALLY FULLY APPRECIATE THE
>SIGNIFICANCE OF SUCH CHARACTERS.
>
>I WOULD LIKE TO SEE US GENERATE AN ALTERNATE SURNAME LIST THAT
>CONTAINS ALL OF THE DIACRITICAL CHARACTERS, AND IN ADDITION, ONLY
>THOSE ALTERNATES THAT ARE VERIFIABLE ALTERNATES.   WOULD YOU LIKE TO
>PREPARE SUCH A LIST FOR US?
>
>
>What about stripping all the errors from the list, keeping only
>information that is linked to a proper source (like a church book
>entry) and displaying the names as they are given in these sources?
>
>
>I AM NOT SURE HOW YOU WOULD HANDLE THE MANY EXAMPLES I HAVE NOTED
>ABOVE IN SUCH A LIST, SINCE A LARGE NUMBER OF THE "ERRORS" ARE IN FACT
>FROM THE ORIGINAL RECORDS.   IT IS NOT UNCOMMON TO FIND THAT THE
>PASTOR WROTE THE WRONG SURNAME FOR AT LEAST ONE OF THE PARENTS OF THE
>BRIDE OR GROOM ON A MARRIAGE ENTRY.     IN ADDITION, EACH CHILD WOULD
>HAVE THEIR OWN MARRIAGE RECORD, SO IF THE PASTOR SPELLED THE SURNAMES
>OF THE PARENTS DIFFERENT ON EACH RECORD, YOU WOULD HAVE ALTERNATES
>JUST LIKE WE HAVE NOW.    HOW WOULD YOU KNOW WHICH NAMES TO ELIMINATE?
>WHICH OF MY DUERR ALTERNATES IS CORRECT- ALL ARE FROM ORIGINAL
>RECORDS?
>
>
>Maybe the other readers on this mailing list have some more ideas to
>help to improve the Alternate Surnames list?
>
>
>I APPRECIATE YOU COMMENTS, JUTTA.   I DO NOT TAKE THEM LIGHTLY, BUT I
>HOPE I HAVE EXPLAINED WHY THE LIST IS HOW IT IS.
>
>I WOULD VERY MUCH WELCOME SOME VOLUNTEERS  TO HELP CLEAN UP THE LIST,
>BUT IT IS GOING TO TAKE SOME DELVING INTO THE ORIGINAL RECORDS TO
>CLEAN UP SOME OF THE MESS, IF IN FACT THAT HELPS.    REMEMBER THAT THE
>MASTER PEDIGREE DATABASE IS ABOUT HALF MEMBER INPUT FROM PERSONAL
>RECORDS (BE THEY ORAL OR EVEN ORIGINAL RECORDS THAT ARE NOT PRIMARY
>RECORDS- LIKE IMMIGRATION LISTS AND CENSUSES), AND ABOUT HALF FROM THE
>ORIGINAL POLISH RECORDS (SOME OF WHICH ALSO DO NOT AGREE WITH EACH
>OTHER).
>
>
>Kind regards (and still deeply worried)
>
>Jutta Dennerlein
>www.upstreamvistula.org
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
> > [ mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org]On
> > Behalf Of Gary
> > Warner
> > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 6:14 AM
> > To: Annegret Krause; ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Alternative Surnames
> >
> >
> > Annegret,
> >
> > It would appear that the alternate names come from the merging of
> > data from two of our larger submitters of data.   One of them had
> > Wojciechowicz and the other one had Krause for the surname
> > of a wife
> > and mother.    The conflicting data appears from the
> > marriages of the
> > 8 children of Brygida Krause or Wojciechowicz who was married to
> > Kasimir Gottfried Gliesche or Glieze in about 1815 or
> > 1816.    Whether the alternates are really equivalents, or
> > one of our
> > submitters was in error, I cannot say.   The records are from the
> > Turek and Konin marriages of the 1840s.   If one of our
> > readers would
> > like to review the original records and report back with their
> > conclusions, I would be delighted to hear of the results.
> >
> > Gary Warner
> >
> >
> >
> > At 05:36 AM 10/21/06, Annegret Krause wrote:
> > >
> > >Hello all,
> > >
> > >in the Alternate Surnames List and in the SGGEE Pedigree Database I
> > >found that the name Wojciechowicz is alternative to Krause.
> > >In all my Krause documents I never found the name Wojciechowicz. Is
> > >there any information about the source?
> > >
> > >Annegret
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> > >Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> > >Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
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