[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Alternative Surnames

Fri Nov 3 03:23:34 PST 2006

Gary,

sorry for the late reply - and also sorry for causing so many
irritation and sudden activities within SGGEE.

Thank you for going through the effort of writing in capital letters -
but I think the listserve handles the usual ">" for citations pretty
competent.

I do have a good understanding of your Pedigree database difficulties,
but I must say that my understanding of the Alternate Surname list has
not been that of being a help-file for automated database merges.
Sorry for that misunderstanding, but I really thought that the target
group of this list were living people who got stuck with their
genealogy and who would be glad for the hint that they might also look
for Grabowski if the missing Buchholz never turned up.

 ... snip ...
> I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE THE TIME TO PURSUE EACH AND EVERY NAME ON THAT
LIST TO CONFIRM THAT THEY ARE
> ALTERNATES, BUT THE TIME I TAKE DOING MERGES DOES NOT ALLOW ME THE
TIME TO DO THAT.
 ... snip ...

I don't want to go into details, I just want to mention that there is
some significance in the order of doing things. What about checking
that names are true alternates before adding them to the list and
before you start merging?

Thank you for the many examples of name changes in your family. I
think there is no doubt that there are name changes and different
spellings of family names. My opinion is, that at least the rather
exotic name changes need an explanation and some information about the
source of this information so people can decide if this exotic name
change is also relevant for their family research or not. But since
your computer program probably doesn't read footnotes, the information
about the sources is certainly irrelevant as far as the SGGEE
Alternate Surname list is concerned.

I did not want to leave you without an answer to your comprehensive
reply to my question. But I somehow got the feeling that this mailing
list might not be the place where discussions like this one are
welcome.

So let's better get back to normal and talk about the more pleasant
issues ...

Kind regards

Jutta Dennerlein
www.upstreamvistula.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Warner [mailto:gary at warnerengineering.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 10:51 PM
To: Jutta Dennerlein; ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Alternative Surnames

Jutta,

When I started doing the merges of data from various sources in 1998,
it was my goal to merge everything perfectly.   I soon learned that
everyone else had the same incomplete data that I have in my own
personal data, in many cases much worse than my own personal data.
During those first years of merging of data, I can say that I was
truly dumfounded the first time the merging of names led me to the
point where a Schwarz had to be the same as a Czarnecki for the merge
to be completed.    That experience was a real eye opener for me, even
though I must have knowN intuitively that the same name (the color
black in this case) would take a different form in two different
languages.

I do not think I can say with enough emphasis that I too would like
the Alternate Surname list to include only true alternates.    If the
list included only true alternates, then my job of merging the data in
the Master Pedigree database would be MUCH easier, but as is usual, it
seems, attaining that which is desirable is not usually easy, and that
is the case here.   I will try to answer your questions below in CAPS,
not because I am speaking above a normal voice, but because the
listserve strips out all other special formatting.

Gary Warner
SGGEE

 At 05:24 AM 10/22/06, Jutta Dennerlein wrote:

Gary,

does your answer to Annegret mean, that SGGEE is broadcasting the
information that the names "Wojciechowicz" and "Krause" are variations
of the same family name, that there actually is no proper source for
this information ("the Turek and Konin marriages of the 1840s" are
quite a big pile of records), that it anyway might be a marriage based
"name change" and that the information might also be an error of one
or two of your larger submitters of data?

THE ALTERNATE SURNAMES LISTED IN THIS CASE ARE IN FACT BASED ON A
SPECIFIC SET OF MARRIAGES, AND THE INTERPRETATIONS OF TWO OF OUR MORE
ACTIVE SUBMITTERS AS TO WHAT THOSE RECORDS SAY.

IF YOU WOULD LIKE THE SPECIFIC REFERENCES, AND EVEN A COUPLE OF EMAILS
FROM THOSE SUBMITTERS THAT DISCUSS WHY THE NAMES WERE DIFFERENT, I CAN
SUPPLY THEM TO ANYONE WHO WANTS TO INVESTIGATE THIS MATTER TO GENERATE
A THIRD OPINION.

I WOULD IN FACT BE DELIGHTED IF SOMEONE WOULD TAKE ON THAT TASK, AS IT
WOULD EITHER CONFIRM THAT THE NAMES ARE ALTERNATES OR THAT THEY ARE
NOT (IN WHICH CASE THEY WOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE ALTERNATE SURNAMES
LIST).   I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE THE TIME TO PURSUE EACH AND EVERY NAME
ON THAT LIST TO CONFIRM THAT THEY ARE ALTERNATES, BUT THE TIME I TAKE
DOING MERGES DOES NOT ALLOW ME THE TIME TO DO THAT.

YOU ARE CORRECT THAT THE MATCHING OF THESE NAMES MIGHT BE A TOTAL
ERROR.    I THINK, HOWEVER, THAT YOU WILL AGREE THAT SHOWING KRAUSE
FIRST IN THE ACTUAL DATABASE (AS I AM DOING IN THE MASTER PEDIGREE
DATABASE) IS THE APPROPRIATE WAY TO SHOW WHICH IS THE MORE GERMAN OF
THE TWO NAMES.    IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT WOJCIECHOWICZ IS
ENTIRELY A POLISH NAME, AND MAY HAVE NO GERMAN EQUIVALENT.    MY GOAL
IN LISTING THE NAMES TOGETHER IS TO IMPROVE THE CHANCES OF MATCHING UP
DATA THAT MAY BE THE SAME, SINCE A MERGE USING SOUNDEX WILL MATCH UP
"KRAUSE" AND "KRAUSE OR WOJCIECHOWICZ", BUT NOT "KRAUSE" AND
"WOJCECHOWICZ".

I REALIZE THAT THIS PROCEDURE MAY IN FACT INTRODUCE SOME ERRORS BY
COMBINING NAMES THAT ARE NOT REALLY ALTERNATES, BUT MY PURPOSE IS TOO
MAKE OUR MEMBERS AWARE THAT THEY NEED TO LOOK FOR ALTERNATIVE NAMES
WHEN THEY ARE LOOKING AT ANY DATA, AND SUCH A LIST SERVES THAT PURPOSE

It had always been my impression that there are quite a lot of rather
questionable "name changes" in the Alternate Surnames text file (how
did "Gurski change to Nierenberg" or "Kopp to Schumacher"). But I
always assumed that the basic meaning of this file was to help people
in their research.

YOU ARE CORRECT THAT THE BASIC PURPOSE OF THE LIST IS TO ALERT OUR
MEMBERS TO THE POSSIBILITY OF ALTERNATES TO THE SURNAMES THAT THEY ARE
ACCUSTOMED TO SEEING.   I SUSPECT THAT THE TWO NAMES YOU MENTION IN
THE PARAGRAPH ABOVE ARE CHANGES LIKE MY OWN FAMILY NAME- MY FATHER WAS
BORN A JAEGER, BUT FOR REASONS THAT ONLY HE KNOWS FOR SURE, HE CHANGED
IT TO WARNER.     THERE IS NO WAY THAT I CAN REMOVE SUCH CHANGES FROM
THE LIST WITH CERTAINTY, SINCE I DO NOT KNOW THE PARTICULARS OF THE
REASON FOR THE CHANGE- FOR INSTANCE, I SUSPECT THAT CERTAIN GERMAN
NAMES REGULARLY BECAME CERTAIN UNRELATED ENGLISH NAMES UPON ARRIVAL IN
THE U.S.A. OR CANADA, AND THAT FACT MAY BE OF USE TO SOME OF OUR
MEMBERS.

THEN THERE ARE THE NAMES LIKE MY FATHER'S FATHER.    HE WAS BORN A
JAEGER (IT WOULD APPEAR), BUT WHILE SERVING IN THE RUSSIAN ARMY, HE
BECAME A GEIGER (OBVIOUSLY NOT AN EQUIVALENT NAME, BUT ACCORDING TO A
FRIEND WHO SPEAKS RUSSIAN THEY SOUND SIMILAR IN RUSSIAN).    THAT
GEIGER NAME ALSO APPEARED IN HIS RUSSIAN PASSPORT, ON ALL PAGES EXCEPT
FOR THE PAGE WHERE HE WENT TO THE GERMAN CONSULATE IN ODESSA, WHERE
AGAIN HE WAS A JAEGER.

THEN THERE WAS MY GREAT-GRANDFATHER GEIGER WHO HAD SIX CHILDREN IN
POLAND, ALL OF THEM WITH THE GEIGER SURNAME, EXCEPT ONE WHO IS LISTED
IN THE PARISH RECORDS WITH THE JAEGER SURNAME.

But if people who are desperately looking for a "Krause" ancestor are
sent back to the already researched church books to research
Wojciechowicz (and all the spelling variations of this name), I'm
worried that this might delay their research unnecessarily. Especially
since there seems to be no serious reason at all to link and publish
this name change in the Alternate Surnames list.

I WISH THAT THERE WAS A SIMPLE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION ABOVE, BUT
WITHOUT OTHER MEMBERS SEARCHING OUT THE RECORDS TO PROVE OR DISPROVE
THE ALTERNATE SURNAME LIST, I AM FORCED TO SHOW THE ALTERNATES IN THAT
LIST, BECAUSE IT BEST SUITS MY PURPOSE OF MERGING NAMES THAT MIGHT BE
THE SAME.

TO BE SURE, WE ARE NOT SHOWING ALL ALTERNATES (MY WARNER OR JAEGER
SURNAME IS NOT THERE), BUT I AM NOT AN EXPERT AT LANGUAGES, SO I
BELIEVE I WOULD BE UNWISE TO ELIMINATE ALTERNATES THAT MAY NOT REALLY
BE ALTERNATES.

YES, I REALIZE THAT THERE MAY BE ERRORS, BUT POSTING THE ERRORS DID
JUST WHAT WAS INTENDED- IT CAUSED ANNEGRET KRAUSE TO ASK THE QUESTION.
NOW, WILL SOMEONE PURSUE THIS FURTHER TO RESOLVE IF THE ALTERNATE IS
REALLY CORRECT?

There is a rather longish "disclaimer" at the beginning of the list,
that actually says, that the list also contains all the spelling
errors of your Pedigree database. I'm deeply worried about that! After
all some people are quoting this Alternate Surnames list and giving it
as the source of their information. In this way some people's spelling
errors (which happen all the time and are just human) are broadcasted
as new "genealogical facts" and this is ridiculous!

WHEN WE FIRST CREATED THE ALTERNATE SURNAME LIST, IT WAS WITH THE
INTENT TO SHOW THE STARTLING ALTERNATES, LIKE SCHWARZ BEING EQUAL TO
CZARNECKI, AND OTHER SIMILARLY STRANGE (AT LEAST TO ME) COMBINATIONS.

OVER TIME, WE ADDED MOST OF THE ALTERNATES THAT OUR MEMBERS HAVE
SUBMITTED, WITHOUT TRYING TO CORRECT THE SPELLING, SINCE THAT AIDED
THEM IN SEARCHING OUT THEIR FAMILY BY SEEING ALTERNATES TO THEIR
SPELLING.   ALSO, OFTEN NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE CORRECT SPELLING OF A
NAME IS.

REMEMBER THAT SPELLING DID NOT REALLY START TO STANDARDIZE UNTIL THE
LATE 1800S IN THE U.S.A. (SOME OF OUR SCHOLARLY READERS WILL LIKELY
PROVIDE US THE DATE WHEN DICTIONARY USE BECAME WIDESPREAD).   PRIOR TO
THAT TIME, THE PASTOR WROTE THE NAME THAT HE THOUGHT HE HEARD, OR
WROTE THAT NAME THAT HE THOUGHT HE KNEW HOW TO SPELL, EVEN WHEN HE
HEARD THE NAME CORRECTLY.     I SUSPECT THAT SOME OF THE PASTORS WERE
VERY BAD SPELLERS INDEED, OR JUST PLAIN NOT CAREFUL, AS I HAVE SEEN
RECORDS WHERE THE SURNAME WAS SPELLED THREE DIFFERENT WAYS IN THE SAME
RECORD.

AS A MEANS OF PARTIALLY ALLEVIATING YOUR CONCERNS ABOUT VARIANT
SPELLINGS, WE HAVE RECENTLY COMPARED ALL OF THE ALTERNATE SURNAMES IN
THE LIST TO THE ON-LINE VERSION OF THE GERMAN WHITE PAGES TO SEE WHICH
VARIANT IS THE MOST COMMON TODAY.   THOSE CHANGES ARE ALREADY
REFLECTED IN THE DATABASE ON THE WEBSITE, BUT NOT YET REFLECTED IN THE
ALTERNATE SURNAME LIST.   ANTJE MASS IS CURRENTLY WORKING TO UPDATE
THAT LIST.

I AM SORRY IF ANYONE IS TAKING OUR ALTERNATE SURNAME LIST AS FACTS.
I THINK THE VERY NATURE OF THE LIST, WITH ALL OF THE ALTERNATES, IS
PROOF THAT WE CANNOT BE SURE WHICH NAME IS CORRECT.   AS YET ANOTHER
EXAMPLE FROM MY FAMILY (WHICH I SUSPECT REPRESENTS QUITE A LOT OF OUR
MEMBERS), ONE OF MY SURNAMES IS POSSIBLY DUERR.   I HAVE SEEN IT
WRITTEN AS

Duerr or Dyr or Dyrr or Duhr or Deren or Dicer or Doehr or Doerr or
Dirr or Dohr or Duehr,

AND I HAVE NO IDEA WHICH OF THOSE SPELLINGS, IF ANY OF THEM, ARE
"CORRECT".

The Polish and the German language are using diacritic letters.
Diacritic letters indicate how a letter or the word in the context is
pronounced. Most of the alleged changes of German names in Polish
church books are based on similar pronunciation of differently spelled
names. Therefore the German and Polish diacritic letters are
essential.
An Alternate Surname list can never handle name changes properly if
the diacritic letters are omitted!

YES, IT WOULD BE NICE IF WE COULD HAVE THE DIACRITICAL CHARACTERS ON
THE WEBSITE.   I PERSONALLY HAVE SEEN MANY INSTANCES WHERE THE POLISH
L WITH A SLASH THROUGH IT HAS BEEN MISINTERPRETED AS A T, SO I FULLY
APPRECIATE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION, HOWEVER, IS THAT ALMOST NONE OF US KNOW
HOW TO ENTER A SIMPLE GERMAN UMLAUT IN A WORD, MUCH LESS ENTER A
POLISH DIACRITICAL CHARACTER, SO IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR US TO
SHOW SUCH CHARACTERS IN THE INTERACTIVE PORTION OF OUR WEBSITE,
ESPECIALLY IF WE WERE USING THEM IN THE SEARCH CRITERIA.

THEN THERE IS THE REALITY THAT MOST OF US HAVE INHERITED OUR DATA VIA
ORAL HISTORY OR DATA TRANSCRIBED FROM ANOTHER PERSON WHO DID NOT KNOW
WHAT TO DO WITH THE DIACRITICAL CHARACTERS, SO NONE OF THOSE
CHARACTERS ARE IN OUR DATA NOW.    EVEN THOSE OF US LUCKY ENOUGH TO
HAVE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS DO NOT USUALLY FULLY APPRECIATE THE
SIGNIFICANCE OF SUCH CHARACTERS.

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE US GENERATE AN ALTERNATE SURNAME LIST THAT
CONTAINS ALL OF THE DIACRITICAL CHARACTERS, AND IN ADDITION, ONLY
THOSE ALTERNATES THAT ARE VERIFIABLE ALTERNATES.   WOULD YOU LIKE TO
PREPARE SUCH A LIST FOR US?

What about stripping all the errors from the list, keeping only
information that is linked to a proper source (like a church book
entry) and displaying the names as they are given in these sources?

I AM NOT SURE HOW YOU WOULD HANDLE THE MANY EXAMPLES I HAVE NOTED
ABOVE IN SUCH A LIST, SINCE A LARGE NUMBER OF THE "ERRORS" ARE IN FACT
FROM THE ORIGINAL RECORDS.   IT IS NOT UNCOMMON TO FIND THAT THE
PASTOR WROTE THE WRONG SURNAME FOR AT LEAST ONE OF THE PARENTS OF THE
BRIDE OR GROOM ON A MARRIAGE ENTRY.     IN ADDITION, EACH CHILD WOULD
HAVE THEIR OWN MARRIAGE RECORD, SO IF THE PASTOR SPELLED THE SURNAMES
OF THE PARENTS DIFFERENT ON EACH RECORD, YOU WOULD HAVE ALTERNATES
JUST LIKE WE HAVE NOW.    HOW WOULD YOU KNOW WHICH NAMES TO ELIMINATE?
WHICH OF MY DUERR ALTERNATES IS CORRECT- ALL ARE FROM ORIGINAL
RECORDS?

Maybe the other readers on this mailing list have some more ideas to
help to improve the Alternate Surnames list?

I APPRECIATE YOU COMMENTS, JUTTA.   I DO NOT TAKE THEM LIGHTLY, BUT I
HOPE I HAVE EXPLAINED WHY THE LIST IS HOW IT IS.

I WOULD VERY MUCH WELCOME SOME VOLUNTEERS  TO HELP CLEAN UP THE LIST,
BUT IT IS GOING TO TAKE SOME DELVING INTO THE ORIGINAL RECORDS TO
CLEAN UP SOME OF THE MESS, IF IN FACT THAT HELPS.    REMEMBER THAT THE
MASTER PEDIGREE DATABASE IS ABOUT HALF MEMBER INPUT FROM PERSONAL
RECORDS (BE THEY ORAL OR EVEN ORIGINAL RECORDS THAT ARE NOT PRIMARY
RECORDS- LIKE IMMIGRATION LISTS AND CENSUSES), AND ABOUT HALF FROM THE
ORIGINAL POLISH RECORDS (SOME OF WHICH ALSO DO NOT AGREE WITH EACH
OTHER).

Kind regards (and still deeply worried)

Jutta Dennerlein
www.upstreamvistula.org

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
> [ mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org]On
> Behalf Of Gary
> Warner
> Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 6:14 AM
> To: Annegret Krause; ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Alternative Surnames
>
>
> Annegret,
>
> It would appear that the alternate names come from the merging of
> data from two of our larger submitters of data.   One of them had
> Wojciechowicz and the other one had Krause for the surname
> of a wife
> and mother.    The conflicting data appears from the
> marriages of the
> 8 children of Brygida Krause or Wojciechowicz who was married to
> Kasimir Gottfried Gliesche or Glieze in about 1815 or
> 1816.    Whether the alternates are really equivalents, or
> one of our
> submitters was in error, I cannot say.   The records are from the
> Turek and Konin marriages of the 1840s.   If one of our
> readers would
> like to review the original records and report back with their
> conclusions, I would be delighted to hear of the results.
>
> Gary Warner
>
>
>
> At 05:36 AM 10/21/06, Annegret Krause wrote:
> >
> >Hello all,
> >
> >in the Alternate Surnames List and in the SGGEE Pedigree Database I
> >found that the name Wojciechowicz is alternative to Krause.
> >In all my Krause documents I never found the name Wojciechowicz. Is
> >there any information about the source?
> >
> >Annegret
> >
> >_______________________________________________
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> >Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>
>
>
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