[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 30, Issue 2
Verna Hutchinson
verna2k5 at shaw.ca
Tue Nov 1 19:50:41 PST 2005
Hi List;
My GreatGrandparents from Bessarabia must have been an oddity,because
My Grandmother was both Ukrainian (Polish) and German. She told us that her
father was catholic Ukrainian (Polish) name was Rabliuk and that her mother
was German, her name was Dietrich. I'm glad that it didn't bother my
Grandfather that she was half and half. It must have been l-o-v-e
Thanks for a great site, I've really learned a lot and will continue
hunting for more information- Verna
-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
[mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of
ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org
Sent: November 1, 2005 7:07 PM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 30, Issue 2
Send Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list submissions to
ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://eclipse.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Ger-Poland-Volhynia digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Lost in Translation by Otto (Posnsrch at aol.com)
2. Mailing list etiquette (Jerry Frank)
3. Re: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 30, Issue 1 (Verna Hutchinson)
4. Re: Germans speaking Polish in West Prussia (remus at hawaii.edu)
5. Re: Germans speaking Polish (Posnsrch at aol.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:10:40 EST
From: Posnsrch at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Lost in Translation by Otto
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org, otto at schienke.com
Message-ID: <1db.47b0cb3c.309933d0 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 11/1/2005 2:13:18 P.M. Central Standard Time,
ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org Otto writes:
Oh, Nellie, before I forget, dump out that old bag of rocks you
carry, their weight only diminish your joy of life.
I have learned a tremendous amount of history and useful genealogy facts on
this list. I value this list more than any other list to which I belong
because everyone has such great integrity and there few insults slung. It
has
always been a joy to read and learn from this list, and I have always felt
a
freedom to share without a pending backlash. Thank you for allowing all
facts
and experiences to be shared here in the spirit of sharing, not slamming.
We
can all learn about history together, as we piece the puzzle of our
ancestors
together. This list is one of the best there is, and hopefully it will
continue with no slighting comments to others.
And just for the record: one of my sons-in-law is 2nd generation Polish, my
husband is 1/8 Cherokee, my daughters-in-law are Filipina and Panamanian,
my
other son-in-law is 2nd generation Italian, and we had 21 minority foster
children. I graduated from a Christian college, and I am a certified
special
education teacher since 1976 (now retired) and an evening college teacher
at the
Univ of Texas at Brownsville, where not one student knew English, so I feel
my life reflects both my happiness and my tolerance.
I feel since this comment was made to the list, a response was necessary.
Hopefully, any other negative comments will be sent to me directly, to keep
this
list with a spirit of help, not pettiness.
Nellie, a 68-yr-old root digger
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:45:15 -0700
From: Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca>
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Mailing list etiquette
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID: <f1378f2802.f2802f1378 at shaw.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
We have obviously had a minor problem on the list. This is really the first
time in 4 years so that is a pretty good record.
I am not picking on individuals here - this is a reminder to everyone.
When posting to this list, please refrain from making personal comments
about individuals unless it is in the form of thanks for assistance. It is
often very easy to misconstrue the intent of the written word. We can
sometimes jump to hasty conclusions when we cannot communicate verbally for
clarification.
And, if a problem arises, please address your concern to me personally. I
will arrange to help resolve it and will determine if the rest of the list
needs to be involved.
Thanks to everyone for making this the best GR forum of any kind, anywhere.
Thank you for your participation and willingness to help others learn more
about their genealogy, culture, and history.
Please DO NOT respond to this message via the list. If you have any
concerns or questions about it, please direct them to me personally. Thank
you.
Jerry Frank
List Administrator
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:56:53 -0700
From: Verna Hutchinson <verna2k5 at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 30,
Issue 1
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID: <0IPA00L1LVV151 at l-daemon>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
HI list:
I started my search for my grandparents place of origin and all that I
knew was that my Kuhl grandparents came from Lutsk in Poland and my
Laudinsky grandparents came from Bessarabia thanks to your site and the
great maps that I found through your site, I now know who my grandmother's
parents were and my grgrgrandmother's maiden name.
The Kuhls from Lutsk who spoke high german were almost directly above
where the Laudinskys in Kolomea lived according to the map.Kolomea I believe
is in Galacia and they spoke low german or platt duetch. The grandparents
never knew each other until moving to Manitoba and starting up a Lutheran
church in Winnipeg.
I appreciate all the help that I'm getting through your site.
I heard that there are a lot of Kuhls in Alberta- I've just moved here and
would like to hear from you. Verna from Calgary--
-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
[mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of
ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org
Sent: November 1, 2005 1:00 PM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 30, Issue 1
Send Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list submissions to
ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://eclipse.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
ger-poland-volhynia-owner at eclipse.sggee.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Ger-Poland-Volhynia digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Germans speaking Polish (Jerry Frank)
2. Lost in Translation (Otto)
3. Re: Germans speaking Polish (Rose Ingram)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:39:24 -0700
From: Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Germans speaking Polish
To: Posnsrch at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID: <7.0.0.10.0.20051031222012.01cfaa80 at shaw.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
I agree in part with your ideas, Nellie but I think you have missed
one key factor.
That is that the marketplace language in Prussian parts of modern day
Poland would more likely have been German. Therefore the Pole would
be expected to communicate in that language and here the German would
look down on the Pole. In the Russian portion of modern Poland, the
official language was Polish but Germans were allowed to run there
own German schools and therefore they retained their language and
culture. Here the Pole, in the majority, would look down on the
German. The marketplace language here would be Polish and the
Germans would have to learn at least some of it to
communicate. Pastors of course were obligated to learn Polish
because their records had to be written in the Polish language - just
as they had to learn Russian after 1868 so they could write in that
language when it was forced on the people.
I can't speak much for the Germans who came directly out of Russian
Poland but those from Volhynia could often communicate in at least 4
languages - German, Polish, Yiddish, and Russian. They learned
German in their schools; they needed Polish to communicate with their
landlords and some of the residents; Yiddish was required to
communicate with the Jews in the market towns because Volhynia was
located within the Pale of Settlement; and Russian was essential to
communicate when they performed military service.
I don't deny that there were prejudices even in those years but the
language would be learned out of necessity as suited to the region
where they lived.
Jerry Frank - Calgary, Alberta
FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca
At 05:20 PM 31/10/2005, Posnsrch at aol.com wrote:
>
>
>In a message dated 10/31/2005 2:12:34 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org writes:
>
>
>I have no firm facts for this but I believe that, in most cases, the
>Germans would use German as their primary language but would know
>enough Polish to function in the marketplace. The pastor would be
>fluent in both languages.
>
>
>I do have a few facts from one particular area of America (Dakotas) when it
>comes to Germans speaking Polish.
>
>My 4 lines were all German. They and other German-speaking relatives and
>friends in the Dakota Territory could not/ did not/ would not speak
>Polish. NO
>Polish.
>
>They felt that Germans were "better" than Poles. None of the Germans were
>Catholic...they all were German Lutheran. In Germany, if the Polish people
>spoke Polish on the streets or in the marketplaces, they were
>disciplined by the
>German officials. (Not to say this was right, it is just the way it was in
>the areas of Berlin, Posen, Bromberg, and Novorad, Russia, where my German
>family lived.)
>
>One of the reasons that the whole lot of them (German ancestors) came to
>America because Germany allowed the Poles to begin to build their
>own schools,
>open their own churches, and the Germans had great anomosity toward them.
>
>This was not just my family; this was a well-known attitude that was held
>with most all the Germans in Dakota Territory. Their sons and
>daughters could
>NOT date a Pole here in America; that brought great shame. Many small
towns
>would not allow Catholics to build a church in their towns. This applies
>certainly to all the Germans whom I knew and my gr grandparents
>knew. It even
>continued in Mpls/St Paul in the 20's 30's and 40's. Germans would
>not work along
>side of "Polacks" on the assembly lines of WWII.
>
>Now, it may sound radical to say that they thought they were "better", but
>that idea was often held in the old country. i.e. Russians were better than
>Germans, Germans were better than Latvians, etc. When my grandmother was in
>Russia, the Russians would not speak German and did not respect
>the Germans. The
>Russians built houses, even towns, for the German workers who came from
>Germany to work in the fields. (They even had their own cemeteries.
>There are
>areas that even today have the German Cemeteries behind the Russian
>Cemeteries,
>and the German Cemeteries are grown over with weeds and not taken care
of.)
>
>
>
> It sounds terrible to write, but as a child, I know all of this as a
fact.
>It isn't right, but even today, prejudice and biasness is still alive
>(perhaps not toward a Polish person - perhaps toward a Mexican, a
>Black, etc.) It
>does not make it right, and I am just reporting the way it was. If it was
>different in the areas where some of you grew up, that is great, and
>please share
>with the list.
>
>Nellie, a 68-yr-old root digger
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 02:26:09 -0500
From: Otto <otto at schienke.com>
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Lost in Translation
To: S G G E E <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Message-ID: <081A3231-3FDF-4405-925F-DFF7F2828148 at schienke.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
From: robertnorenberg
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Lost in Translation
Date: October 31, 2005 11:30:52 PM EST
To: ger-poland-volhynia
O.K. So my ancestor spoke in german to his pastor and
then the pastor wrote the record in polish (but
probably spoke back to my ancestor in german.) This
may account for some of the odd little mix ups I have
seen in some of
these records. After all,the pastor was multi tasking! Robert
===============================================
Robert,
The pastor undoubtedly had little difficulty working with two languages.
Multi-lingual, being multi-lingual, speaking two, three, or four
languages in Europe is not uncommon.
It only appears so to we, 'language disadvantaged', Americans and
Canadians who speak only the English language, with a twang, of
course. In a train compartment, while in Poland, Cousin Egon kept a
multi-lingual conversation going in German, French, Polish, English
and what I though to be Spanish... I think he stated it was
Portuguese. I hung my head in humility. By the way, before I speak
further, I love the English language with its some million words to
express myself with. I work at absorbing it daily. A word here, a
word there. At my age I forget one for every three I learn. So what,
I'm still gaining.
Language is not a badge of identity.
It is only an indication of identity until proven out. Genetic
testing could create some hilarious moments.
Our forefathers usually spoke three or four languages. They may not
necessarily have written them.
For instance: The 'kitchen language', the one spoken at the dinner
table. It proved to be the cultural bond. It could well have been
Low German, Platt, that is to say, Flatland German. Outdoors among
peers, the language could well be High German, Hoch Deutsch, or as I
like to refer to it, Hilly Hessian, the language of Luther. ("Low" or
"High" German has nothing to do with superiority of language, it
denotes geographic elevation of the speaker of it. Over, "Uber"
German refers to the Bavarian mountain dialects. Flatland, hilly,
and mountainous German... Simple.
So much for German variations of language. In the 1700's the priests
used Latin to record family documents.
1806 and after in Russian Poland it became mandatory they be kept in
the Polish language. Circa 1867-1868 it became mandatory they be
kept in the Russian language in Russian Poland. 1918-1920 they were
kept in the Polish language again. 1939-1945 they were kept in
German. The abused Poles can finally use their own language now in 2005.
My parents spoke Platt Deutsch/Low German among themselves at private
moments. (As kids we though it was about sex)
To us they spoke High German- I would have preferred the Platt, to
enable me to understand with ease the Scandinavian languages. My
relatives spoke Polish, out of necessity plus they had Polish
friends. My relatives spoke Russian, out of necessity plus they had
Russian friends. We are all too human, language comes second. They
added 'English' to their vocal sounds without giving it second
thought. Pop added Czech to his language skills so he could drink
wine with his Czech neighbor here in the States. Now just where did
I learn that handful of Yiddish words...?
Oh, Nellie, before I forget, dump out that old bag of rocks you
carry, their weight only diminish your joy of life.
Richard O. Schienke
... Otto
" The Zen moment..." wk. of September 4, 2005-
________________________________
"The past, as the present...Always under construction."
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:35:12 -0800
From: Rose Ingram <roseingram at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Germans speaking Polish
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID: <009001c5deb6$cba41730$c1034618 at roses>
Content-Type: text/plain; reply-type=original; charset=iso-8859-1;
format=flowed
Jerry Frank wrote:
>
> I can't speak much for the Germans who came directly out of Russian
> Poland but those from Volhynia could often communicate in at least 4
> languages - German, Polish, Yiddish, and Russian. They learned
> German in their schools; they needed Polish to communicate with their
> landlords and some of the residents; Yiddish was required to
> communicate with the Jews in the market towns because Volhynia was
> located within the Pale of Settlement; and Russian was essential to
> communicate when they performed military service.
My father was born and raised in Kutno-Gostynin area of Russian Poland, and
could speak German, Polish, Yiddish, and some Russian. German was spoken
at home. He learned both German and Polish in school, but Polish was the
main language used at his Railroad work until WWII. (My parents spoke
Polish when they didn't want 'us kids' to hear what they were saying.)
Speaking Yiddish was also necessary to communicate with the large Jewish
population in this area at that time.
Rose Ingram
------------------------------
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End of Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 30, Issue 1
**************************************************
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:45:04 -1000
From: remus at hawaii.edu
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Germans speaking Polish in West
Prussia
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID: <f52de497c2a.43677f70 at hawaii.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
West Prussia is an interesting case for languages and there will be more on
that. But first, West Prussia (or Royal Prussia) was the region between
Hinterpommern (Pommerania in Poland) and East Prussia. It was a semiautomous
part of Poland until the partition of 1772 when it became part of Prussia.
Later between the great wars, it was split between Germany and Poland so as
to form the Polish Corridor (to the sea). Danzig (a Hanseatic League city)
and Thorn (birthplace of Kopericus) were its most famous cities.
Geographically, its scenery and climate is like MN or MI.
Prior to the first partion of 1772 if you were of German ancestry, it was
useful to speak Polish (or is some regions Kasubian) to talk with the
neighbors and transact business with the West Prussian (largely Polish)
nobility (contracts were in Polish or Latin), Yiddish to talk with
merchants, and German to talk with family and fellow Germans (many of the
Polish nobles also spoke German).
After 1772 German was the official language including schools and offices
and useful in almost all circumstances - but still Polish (or is some
regions Kasubian) was helpful to talk with neighbors and Yiddish helpful to
shop. Although the general trend was toward German for all. Given the amount
of intermarriage of Poles and Germans, you might also need Polish for
in-laws.
Between the great wars, the German part of West Prussia became more German
speaking and the corridor more Polish speaking although both languages would
be useful. And the Kasubian regions still maintained their culture and
language.
Given the sad experience of the second world war, Polish is the only
language widely spoken in old West Prussia. Some still speak Kasubian. And
German is the language of tourism. (English is useful in the big cities or
with young people learning it in school).
Regards Bill Remus
Family Names Remus, Hardwardt, Hoffmann, Spitzer, Radke, Krassin, and
Lehmann (and others) from Volhynia, Russian Poland, Poznan region of Poland,
and West Prussia
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 21:06:13 EST
From: Posnsrch at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Germans speaking Polish
To: albertr7 at juno.com, ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID: <1c8.34e4f21d.30997915 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Germans speaking Polish Date:
10/31/2005 11:08:05 P.M. Central Standard Time From: _Posnsrch_
(mailto:Posnsrch)
To: _albertr7 at juno.com_ (mailto:albertr7 at juno.com) ,
_ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org_
(mailto:ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org)
Hi Al,
How very interesting. Thank you so much for sharing what their lives were
like "back then" and a bit of history. I couldn't see if you posted this on
the
list, but if you don't think it is too personal, what a wonderful story for
others to read.
Nellie, a 68-yr-old root digger
In a message dated 11/1/2005 7:46:57 P.M. Central Standard Time,
albertr7 at juno.com writes:
Hi.
I'm glad you enjoyed reading it. No, I don't think it is too personal. You
may forward it to the list if you would like to do that.
Al.
Here is Al's story of his family:
Hi Nellie,
Yes, my great-grandfather Samuel Schultz was well to do. They lived in
Russian-Poland in what was called Congress Poland, so most of their
neighbors
were either Germanic or Polish. Grandmother said it was her grandfather
(my
great-great-grandfather) who had acquired a great deal of money which he
gave to
each of his sons. Grandmother said they had hired servants working in
their home. In fact a young servant girl used to share her room as she was
growing up. The village where they lived is devoted to farming and not
much else.
Even though they were farmers they were rather prosperous, and controlled a
large acreage perhaps. Samuel was the village magistrate and had the
unpleasant task of rounding up young men to be conscripted into the Russian
army. My
grandmother was disinherited because she insisted on joining the Baptist
religion, which is one reason she married my grandfather who was one of the
servants (a farmhand) in Poland. As soon as they could they came to
America to
make a more prosperous life.
I think my great-grandfather Samuel spoke some Russian as he had to deal
with the Russian government officials. My grandmother had a dislike for
the
Russians because of the corrupt nature of the Czarist government. She said
she
felt the Poles would be better off if they were not under Russian control.
Grandmother came to America in 1887 but wrote letters home all through the
years. After 1918 she found out the Russians had taken the male villagers
deep
into Russia. This was very hard on her father Samuel although he survived
and returned to his home where he died. Grandmother told us that he lost
most
of his money as the result of the war (1914-1918), but I don't know more
than
that.
So I had 2 grandparents born in Russian-Poland, and 1 grandfather born in
Russia. My maternal grandmother born in America had parents from Russia.
My
maternal grandfather was a German Mennonite in South Russia (now called
Ukraine), he could speak read and write both German and Russian because
they had to
learn this in school. He left Russia in 1902. Yes even though they lived
in isolated colonies they had contacts with certain Russians and
Ukrainians.
My grandfather David died in 1976 at age 98. So he remembered the old
times
in Russia. He said he knew of a German man who had an affair with a
Ukrainian. When she became pregnant the fellow had to go to her family
with a large
wagon full of gifts to buy them off because he did not want to marry her.
Normally, though they did not have close relationships with the non-German
population. Especially, for my grandfather as his religion was very
important
to him. Even in Canada and America he lived in communities where there was
a
Mennonite church and people of his own background. Up until about 1960 in
our little town I used to hear Low German dialect spoken. Unfortunately, I
never spoke it myself, but I recognized it as different from the High
German.
My mother died when I was young, and father never spoke German at home,
because he wanted me to be completely American. Although he told me over
and over
again that I was German.
Well I hope I answered a couple of questions,
Al.
------------------------------
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