[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 30, Issue 1
Verna Hutchinson
verna2k5 at shaw.ca
Tue Nov 1 15:56:53 PST 2005
HI list:
I started my search for my grandparents place of origin and all that I
knew was that my Kuhl grandparents came from Lutsk in Poland and my
Laudinsky grandparents came from Bessarabia thanks to your site and the
great maps that I found through your site, I now know who my grandmother's
parents were and my grgrgrandmother's maiden name.
The Kuhls from Lutsk who spoke high german were almost directly above
where the Laudinskys in Kolomea lived according to the map.Kolomea I believe
is in Galacia and they spoke low german or platt duetch. The grandparents
never knew each other until moving to Manitoba and starting up a Lutheran
church in Winnipeg.
I appreciate all the help that I'm getting through your site.
I heard that there are a lot of Kuhls in Alberta- I've just moved here and
would like to hear from you. Verna from Calgary--
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Subject: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 30, Issue 1
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Germans speaking Polish (Jerry Frank)
2. Lost in Translation (Otto)
3. Re: Germans speaking Polish (Rose Ingram)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:39:24 -0700
From: Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Germans speaking Polish
To: Posnsrch at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID: <7.0.0.10.0.20051031222012.01cfaa80 at shaw.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
I agree in part with your ideas, Nellie but I think you have missed
one key factor.
That is that the marketplace language in Prussian parts of modern day
Poland would more likely have been German. Therefore the Pole would
be expected to communicate in that language and here the German would
look down on the Pole. In the Russian portion of modern Poland, the
official language was Polish but Germans were allowed to run there
own German schools and therefore they retained their language and
culture. Here the Pole, in the majority, would look down on the
German. The marketplace language here would be Polish and the
Germans would have to learn at least some of it to
communicate. Pastors of course were obligated to learn Polish
because their records had to be written in the Polish language - just
as they had to learn Russian after 1868 so they could write in that
language when it was forced on the people.
I can't speak much for the Germans who came directly out of Russian
Poland but those from Volhynia could often communicate in at least 4
languages - German, Polish, Yiddish, and Russian. They learned
German in their schools; they needed Polish to communicate with their
landlords and some of the residents; Yiddish was required to
communicate with the Jews in the market towns because Volhynia was
located within the Pale of Settlement; and Russian was essential to
communicate when they performed military service.
I don't deny that there were prejudices even in those years but the
language would be learned out of necessity as suited to the region
where they lived.
Jerry Frank - Calgary, Alberta
FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca
At 05:20 PM 31/10/2005, Posnsrch at aol.com wrote:
>
>
>In a message dated 10/31/2005 2:12:34 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org writes:
>
>
>I have no firm facts for this but I believe that, in most cases, the
>Germans would use German as their primary language but would know
>enough Polish to function in the marketplace. The pastor would be
>fluent in both languages.
>
>
>I do have a few facts from one particular area of America (Dakotas) when it
>comes to Germans speaking Polish.
>
>My 4 lines were all German. They and other German-speaking relatives and
>friends in the Dakota Territory could not/ did not/ would not speak
>Polish. NO
>Polish.
>
>They felt that Germans were "better" than Poles. None of the Germans were
>Catholic...they all were German Lutheran. In Germany, if the Polish people
>spoke Polish on the streets or in the marketplaces, they were
>disciplined by the
>German officials. (Not to say this was right, it is just the way it was in
>the areas of Berlin, Posen, Bromberg, and Novorad, Russia, where my German
>family lived.)
>
>One of the reasons that the whole lot of them (German ancestors) came to
>America because Germany allowed the Poles to begin to build their
>own schools,
>open their own churches, and the Germans had great anomosity toward them.
>
>This was not just my family; this was a well-known attitude that was held
>with most all the Germans in Dakota Territory. Their sons and
>daughters could
>NOT date a Pole here in America; that brought great shame. Many small
towns
>would not allow Catholics to build a church in their towns. This applies
>certainly to all the Germans whom I knew and my gr grandparents
>knew. It even
>continued in Mpls/St Paul in the 20's 30's and 40's. Germans would
>not work along
>side of "Polacks" on the assembly lines of WWII.
>
>Now, it may sound radical to say that they thought they were "better", but
>that idea was often held in the old country. i.e. Russians were better than
>Germans, Germans were better than Latvians, etc. When my grandmother was in
>Russia, the Russians would not speak German and did not respect
>the Germans. The
>Russians built houses, even towns, for the German workers who came from
>Germany to work in the fields. (They even had their own cemeteries.
>There are
>areas that even today have the German Cemeteries behind the Russian
>Cemeteries,
>and the German Cemeteries are grown over with weeds and not taken care
of.)
>
>
>
> It sounds terrible to write, but as a child, I know all of this as a
fact.
>It isn't right, but even today, prejudice and biasness is still alive
>(perhaps not toward a Polish person - perhaps toward a Mexican, a
>Black, etc.) It
>does not make it right, and I am just reporting the way it was. If it was
>different in the areas where some of you grew up, that is great, and
>please share
>with the list.
>
>Nellie, a 68-yr-old root digger
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 02:26:09 -0500
From: Otto <otto at schienke.com>
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Lost in Translation
To: S G G E E <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Message-ID: <081A3231-3FDF-4405-925F-DFF7F2828148 at schienke.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
From: robertnorenberg
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Lost in Translation
Date: October 31, 2005 11:30:52 PM EST
To: ger-poland-volhynia
O.K. So my ancestor spoke in german to his pastor and
then the pastor wrote the record in polish (but
probably spoke back to my ancestor in german.) This
may account for some of the odd little mix ups I have
seen in some of
these records. After all,the pastor was multi tasking! Robert
===============================================
Robert,
The pastor undoubtedly had little difficulty working with two languages.
Multi-lingual, being multi-lingual, speaking two, three, or four
languages in Europe is not uncommon.
It only appears so to we, 'language disadvantaged', Americans and
Canadians who speak only the English language, with a twang, of
course. In a train compartment, while in Poland, Cousin Egon kept a
multi-lingual conversation going in German, French, Polish, English
and what I though to be Spanish... I think he stated it was
Portuguese. I hung my head in humility. By the way, before I speak
further, I love the English language with its some million words to
express myself with. I work at absorbing it daily. A word here, a
word there. At my age I forget one for every three I learn. So what,
I'm still gaining.
Language is not a badge of identity.
It is only an indication of identity until proven out. Genetic
testing could create some hilarious moments.
Our forefathers usually spoke three or four languages. They may not
necessarily have written them.
For instance: The 'kitchen language', the one spoken at the dinner
table. It proved to be the cultural bond. It could well have been
Low German, Platt, that is to say, Flatland German. Outdoors among
peers, the language could well be High German, Hoch Deutsch, or as I
like to refer to it, Hilly Hessian, the language of Luther. ("Low" or
"High" German has nothing to do with superiority of language, it
denotes geographic elevation of the speaker of it. Over, "Uber"
German refers to the Bavarian mountain dialects. Flatland, hilly,
and mountainous German... Simple.
So much for German variations of language. In the 1700's the priests
used Latin to record family documents.
1806 and after in Russian Poland it became mandatory they be kept in
the Polish language. Circa 1867-1868 it became mandatory they be
kept in the Russian language in Russian Poland. 1918-1920 they were
kept in the Polish language again. 1939-1945 they were kept in
German. The abused Poles can finally use their own language now in 2005.
My parents spoke Platt Deutsch/Low German among themselves at private
moments. (As kids we though it was about sex)
To us they spoke High German- I would have preferred the Platt, to
enable me to understand with ease the Scandinavian languages. My
relatives spoke Polish, out of necessity plus they had Polish
friends. My relatives spoke Russian, out of necessity plus they had
Russian friends. We are all too human, language comes second. They
added 'English' to their vocal sounds without giving it second
thought. Pop added Czech to his language skills so he could drink
wine with his Czech neighbor here in the States. Now just where did
I learn that handful of Yiddish words...?
Oh, Nellie, before I forget, dump out that old bag of rocks you
carry, their weight only diminish your joy of life.
Richard O. Schienke
... Otto
" The Zen moment..." wk. of September 4, 2005-
________________________________
"The past, as the present...Always under construction."
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:35:12 -0800
From: Rose Ingram <roseingram at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Germans speaking Polish
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID: <009001c5deb6$cba41730$c1034618 at roses>
Content-Type: text/plain; reply-type=original; charset=iso-8859-1;
format=flowed
Jerry Frank wrote:
>
> I can't speak much for the Germans who came directly out of Russian
> Poland but those from Volhynia could often communicate in at least 4
> languages - German, Polish, Yiddish, and Russian. They learned
> German in their schools; they needed Polish to communicate with their
> landlords and some of the residents; Yiddish was required to
> communicate with the Jews in the market towns because Volhynia was
> located within the Pale of Settlement; and Russian was essential to
> communicate when they performed military service.
My father was born and raised in Kutno-Gostynin area of Russian Poland, and
could speak German, Polish, Yiddish, and some Russian. German was spoken
at home. He learned both German and Polish in school, but Polish was the
main language used at his Railroad work until WWII. (My parents spoke
Polish when they didn't want 'us kids' to hear what they were saying.)
Speaking Yiddish was also necessary to communicate with the large Jewish
population in this area at that time.
Rose Ingram
------------------------------
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