[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] How can I get my DNA tested?

Ort Kolewe okolewe at me.com
Sun Sep 15 10:35:30 PDT 2013 

Why do we call Volhynia ...German? It was never a German region ...Polish ,Russian or Ukrainian and French for a little time . Even the Prussian Empire did not claim it. The German groups in that area were orphans even the Lutheran Church was reluctant to send preachers and teachers there.The Germans from Volhynia  were better suited for the Americas...independent attitude.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 14, 2013, at 3:54 PM, BruceB2332 at aol.com wrote:

> Hi,
> This really interests me, as both of my Grandparents were from German  
> Volhynia.. How can I do this, and how much does it cost?
> Sincerely,
> Bruce Braun
> 
> 
> In a message dated 9/14/2013 3:38:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> ger-poland-volhynia-request at sggee.org writes:
> 
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> Today's  Topics:
> 
> 1. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (Linda  Bowen)
> 2. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (Jerry  Frank)
> 3. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (Jerry  Frank)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message:  1
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:33:43 -0500
> From: Linda Bowen  <lindakbowen at cox.net>
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Subject:  Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
> Message-ID:  <5234BA17.1060605 at cox.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> I  have  ordered a   Catholic records film for Ostrog. My second great 
> grandfather on my  mother's side was Polish. I'm hoping I might find 
> information on his  family in these records.
> The film is back ordered so it may be awhile  before I get it.
> I became involved in my family history because of him.  Jaruschewitz 
> sounded  like a very Jewish name to me.
> 
> My great  grandmother's baptismal records indicates he was Catholic and a  
> settler.
> My grandmother was horrified when my uncle became engaged to a  Catholic 
> girl.   I'm not sure she realized that her grandfather  was Catholic.
> They ended up not getting married and in the end he married a  nice" 
> German girl" with Volhynian roots.
> 
> I had my autosomal  DNA  done at ancestry and then uploaded my raw data 
> to GEDmatch and  to FTDNA.
> My younger brother tested for YDNA  and MTDNA at FTDNA
> My  autosomal DNA  really surprised me when it gave me a mix that  
> included only 7% central Europe.
> It turns out I'm a real mutt, roughly  1/4 British Isles, 1/4 
> Scandinavian , 31 % eastern Europe  and 11%  Volga-ural.
> 
> One of my best matches on GEDmatch and also on FTDNA   told me that some 
> of my fairly close matches are Jewish.
> My brother's  YDNA  is more prevalent in eastern Europe than it is in 
> Germany and  several of the matches  for his YDNA indicate they may be 
> Askenazi  Jews.
> 
> Message for Lynda Radke.
> One of my  4th cousin  matches  on ancestry has the name Radke  from 
> Wladymir Wolynsk  area.
> Wilhelm Radke married Eva Kreuger
> There is a Gustav Radke born in  1885, Emil Radke born in 1890 . Emil 
> married Olga Hammerling.
> Radke is  a very common name in Volhynia, but just thought I'd mention 
> these names  in case something fits.
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/14/2013 11:51 AM, Jerry Frank  wrote:
>> I have not heard of Lutherans being registered in Catholic  churches in
> Volhynia.  If any readers find such records, please let us  know.  Most 
> certainly they did so in Russian Poland, not because they  wanted a church 
> connection but because they were mandated to do so by the  government as long as 
> there was no Lutheran church nearby to accommodate the  registration.  Jews 
> also registered at Catholic churches until their  synagogues were given 
> permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or  so.  Mennonites 
> registered at Lutheran or Catholic churches because they  were not officially 
> recognized as a church.
>> 
>> In Volhynia,  government regulations were more lax, at least until the
> 1890s.  Although  parish buildings were few and far between, a Betshaus 
> (literally prayer house)  was a common entity.  Registration was done through the 
> local Lutheran  Kantor (lay preacher / teacher) which most communities, or 
> groups of  communities, had.  He was authorized to perform baptisms, conduct  
> funerals, and teach confirmation class.  Only the pastor could serve  
> communion and perform marriages.  When the pastor came through the area,  he 
> would copy the Kantorate records into the official church book.  The  Kantor did 
> not always do a good job.  I recall seeing a note on one of  the pages of 
> St. Pete records where the pastor was decrying the poor quality  and accuracy 
> of the records he had received from a Kantor.
>> If some  records for a particular event are missing in Volhynia, it is
> not generally  because they are recorded at a Catholic church but rather that 
> the Kantor  missed the entry, the pastor missed copying it, a book for a 
> particular period  of time is missing, etc.
>> 
>> German Catholics in Volhynia were  quite rare.  Those there were often in 
> the cities, occupied in some  special trade rather than in farming.
>> 
>> Jews in Volhynia were  not large estate owners.  They were not permitted
> to own land in the 19th  century.  They were numerous in number, being part 
> of the Pale of  Settlement.  I don't know the percentage of farmers vs. 
> tradesmen but for  those that were farmers, think "Fiddler on the Roof".
>> 
>> Rumors  of Jewish connections seem to abound among Germans from Russia
> but I have  never seen any verified stories of such a connection.  Don't 
> forget that  Jews did not use surnames until mandated to do so by Napoleon in the 
> late  1700s.  It is far more likely that they adapted or adopted a German  
> surname than that they are your ancestor.  I am not saying that the  
> possibility should never be explored but if other options remain open to you,  
> consider them first.  I am not aware of any particular history that  suggests 
> that German Lutherans married Jews, certainly no more so than that  they 
> married a Catholic, a Pole, a Ukrainian or any other faith or  ethnicity.  Such 
> events occurred but they were very rare in the 19th  century or earlier.
>> 
>> And finally two comments from the other  part of the thread.  The Vistula 
> Germans tag is commonly applied to those  Germans who lived along the Wisla 
> River east of Thorn and on to Warsaw.   As of 1815, this territory became 
> part of Russian Poland so after that year  there would be no migration of 
> Vistula Germans to Russian Poland.  They  were already part of it.
>> 
>> And regarding Germans being known as  Russians after 1854 - this was not
> the case.  They always remained German  by ethnicity (of course often 
> adapting some local customs and food items along  the way).  But they became 
> Russian as a nationality based on the  controlling power at the time.  For 
> example, in 1921, the Germans in  western Volhynia who had been Russian, now 
> became  Polish.
>> 
>> 
>> Jerry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Charlotte Dubay"  <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
>> To:  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
>> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013  9:45:57 AM
>> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran  Germans
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14,  2013:
>> 
>> In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to  Russian Poland
> sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and  Lutheran.  The 
> people married each other or people from other German  villages.  It was a 
> great "sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was  Catholic.  One sibling of my 
> grandmother did this, and the family never  spoke to him again.  He was totally 
> ostracized from the  community.
>> 
>> 
>> From: Krampetz at aol.com
>> To:  hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
>> Sent: Friday,  September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  German Prussians vs German Russians
>> 
>> There are two kinds of  Germans from Russia too..
>>     Those that were from  Russia (Volhynia) and
>>     Those from Poland, who gave  Russia as their home.
>>             -because they  were told they were Russian sometime after  
> 1854(?)
>> 
>> Char writes:
>> Yes, prejudice between Catholics  and German Lutherans ran deep. (I
> married a Catholic, and they loved him, but  hated it when I "converted"- big to 
> do on both sides - and this was in early  50s!)
>> 
>> But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was  sometimes different -
> out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few  actual parish 
> buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at  Heimthal in 
> particular wasn't  built until after my family left there in  1894.) So history 
> shows that the Lutherans many times were married, or  baptized USING A CATHOLIC 
> CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was  better than none church!
>> 
>> The Catholic church records are said  to be thorough; I don't know
> procedure to get to the records, so I have not  done this search. Should. I am 
> missing protestant baptism records that were  not found at St. Pete's.
>> 
>> I haven't done research to see what  the population was in Volhynia for
> Catholics. Should do that, too. That would  be interesting.  I know that 
> Jewish farmers were rare. The Jews were  generally business men and ran almost 
> all of the factories in the full  Volhynia region when my ancestors were 
> there (100 some factories, and more  than 100 run by Jews - I forget the 
> statistic). Just a small % of the Jews  were "farmers", (if I remember, like 3%) 
> and they were generally owners of  larger estates.
>> 
>> I tried to do some research on local Judaism  because some cousins think
> that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and  perhaps converted in 
> Heimthal. This thought is held because of old photos and  whisperings in the family 
> years ago. But I have had no luck finding  Bonderman(n) history. Even had a 
> Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in  his records, but can't seem 
> to find the surname Bonderman anywhere near.  Weichman(n) families held 
> Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic  doesn't hold that there 
> would be a peasant Jewish family in with all the  German peasants/farmers - for 
> love and marriage to happen...
>> 
>> New thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German  
> Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics! 
> hmmm.  (Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my German  
> Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a 
> "Russian".  Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they went.  hah)
>> 
>> My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they  hated Poles. The
> Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on  the streets of 
> Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were  jailed if you 
> did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in  Bromberg 
> then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way  longer than 
> the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early  1860s. We 
> assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more  peasant 
> rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat  itself.
>> 
>> 
>> Charlotte DuBay
>> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message:  2
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:29:32 -0600 (MDT)
> From: Jerry Frank  <franklyspeaking at shaw.ca>
> To: Linda Bowen  <lindakbowen at cox.net>
> Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Subject:  Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
> Message-ID:  <134130857.19443869.1379190572099.JavaMail.root at cds026>
> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> The records will confirm any theories you  have though I don't know if a 
> mixed marriage would ever be recorded at a  Jewish synagogue.  An important 
> thing to remember is that recording at  authorized churches or synagogues pre 
> WW I was mandated in Russian  Poland.  That same mandate did not exist in 
> Volhynia.  
> 
> The  sound of a name, the shape of a nose, nor any other of the other often 
> thought  of indicators do not imply Jewish heritage.  I have seen all kinds 
> of  reasons given for a supposed Jewish heritage.  A lot of people insist I 
> must be Jewish because of my surname but it simply isn't true.  Now a  
> letter written in Yiddish by a family member as reported by Kenneth Browne in  
> a previous message, that may be a different matter.  Here you have some  
> kind of physical evidence.  For a typical German, Yiddish might be used  to 
> communicate at a market town but not in a letter.  I would not rely on  a close 
> dna match telling you about Jewish connections.  She may be just  as 
> misinformed as many others are.  I don't want to discourage your  research.  I 
> just don't want others jumping on the same bandwagon based  on vague notions.
> 
> As for Ashkenazi roots, I think almost everyone with  east European 
> connections shows some percentage of Ashkenazi roots.  It  however proves nothing 
> in terms of Jewishness.  If it were possible to  check the dna of an ancestor 
> from 1000 years ago, you might find that the  percentage has not changed 
> much because other factors have changed a  lot.  
> 
> I am not anti-Jewish.  I just find that some people  (not necessarily you) 
> have an unusual obsession with a need to be Jewish in  some way and good 
> research time gets wasted in going in that  direction.
> 
> Jerry Frank
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message  -----
> From: "Linda Bowen" <lindakbowen at cox.net>
> To:  ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 1:33:43  PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran  Germans
> 
> I  have  ordered a  Catholic records film for  Ostrog. My second great 
> grandfather on my mother's side was Polish. I'm  hoping I might find 
> information on his family in these records.
> The  film is back ordered so it may be awhile before I get it.
> I became involved  in my family history because of him. Jaruschewitz 
> sounded  like a  very Jewish name to me.
> 
> My great grandmother's baptismal records  indicates he was Catholic and a 
> settler.
> My grandmother was horrified  when my uncle became engaged to a Catholic 
> girl.   I'm not sure  she realized that her grandfather was Catholic.
> They ended up not getting  married and in the end he married a nice" 
> German girl" with Volhynian  roots.
> 
> I had my autosomal DNA  done at ancestry and then uploaded  my raw data 
> to GEDmatch and to FTDNA.
> My younger brother tested for  YDNA  and MTDNA at FTDNA
> My autosomal DNA  really surprised me  when it gave me a mix that 
> included only 7% central Europe.
> It turns  out I'm a real mutt, roughly 1/4 British Isles, 1/4 
> Scandinavian , 31 %  eastern Europe  and 11% Volga-ural.
> 
> One of my best matches on  GEDmatch and also on FTDNA  told me that some 
> of my fairly close  matches are Jewish.
> My brother's YDNA  is more prevalent in eastern  Europe than it is in 
> Germany and several of the matches  for his YDNA  indicate they may be 
> Askenazi Jews.
> 
> Message for Lynda Radke.
> One  of my  4th cousin matches  on ancestry has the name Radke  from  
> Wladymir Wolynsk area.
> Wilhelm Radke married Eva Kreuger
> There is a  Gustav Radke born in 1885, Emil Radke born in 1890 . Emil 
> married Olga  Hammerling.
> Radke is a very common name in Volhynia, but just thought I'd  mention 
> these names in case something fits.
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/14/2013  11:51 AM, Jerry Frank wrote:
>> I have not heard of Lutherans being  registered in Catholic churches in
> Volhynia.  If any readers find such  records, please let us know.  Most 
> certainly they did so in Russian  Poland, not because they wanted a church 
> connection but because they were  mandated to do so by the government as long as 
> there was no Lutheran church  nearby to

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