[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] I have a question about Zion Lutheran Church in Vladimir Volhynsk
BruceB2332 at aol.com
BruceB2332 at aol.com
Sat Sep 14 15:33:44 PDT 2013
Can anyone please tell me about Zion Lutheran Church in Wladimir Volhynsk?
This was where my great grandfather was a teacher,His name was Julius
Buelow, he was a German Lutheran in Ukraine, and my Great-grandfather August
Knull died there during his youngest daughter's wedding.
Bruce Braun
In a message dated 9/14/2013 5:24:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (gpvjem)
2. Re: Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans (Linda Bowen)
3. Unsubscribe Please (Hart @ Hilda)
4. churches in Vohlynia (Charlotte Dubay)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:43:06 -0600
From: "gpvjem" <gpvjem at sasktel.net>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>, "Charlotte Dubay"
<hoeserhistory at aol.com>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
Message-ID: <7812AD9E019741A1B6F24B89546624FF at Marsh>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
According to the publication Die Evangelisch-Lutherischen Gemeinden in
Russland printed in 1909 ("The Evangelical Lutheran Parishes in Russia"), the
cornerstone for a wooden Lutheran church was laid in Heimtal in 1873,
followed by the consecration on the 20th of August 1878. It was some time
later that the old manse was replaced with a new stone manse however.
Several years ago I had the opportunity to enter about 35 thousand names
from the church records of Lodz (Poland) Trinity Lutheran marriages, births
and deaths into a Legacy software file. The file can be accessed by SGGEE
members on the SGGEE web site. The period covered in these records was
from 1825 to 1851, a consecutive 25 year period. In the case of the
marriages of which there were several hundred, I was surprised to see the number of
marriages between Catholics and Lutherans. The vast majority of these
"mixed" marriages were between German Catholic men and German Lutheran women.
They were so noted in the Lodi Lutheran church records as were at least
some of the births of their children who may have born to them . Another
interesting tid-bit that I noticed, many of the Catholic men had come to Lodz
from Tschechei (now the Czech Republic), likely to work in the textile
industry for which Lodz was famous at the time. I did not "recognize" any
marriages betwe
en ethni
c Poles and ethnic Germans but that is not to say it didn't occur. It
would be interesting to see Catholic church records for the same time period.
John Marsch
in Sunny Saskatchewan
-------------------------------------------------
Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14, 2013:
In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to Russian Poland
sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and Lutheran. The
people married each other or people from other German villages. It was a great
"sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was Catholic. One sibling of my
grandmother did this, and the family never spoke to him again. He was totally
ostracized from the community.
From: Krampetz at aol.com
To: hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians
There are two kinds of Germans from Russia too..
Those that were from Russia (Volhynia) and
Those from Poland, who gave Russia as their home.
-because they were told they were Russian sometime after 1854(?)
Char writes:
Yes, prejudice between Catholics and German Lutherans ran deep. (I married
a Catholic, and they loved him, but hated it when I "converted"- big to do
on both sides - and this was in early 50s!)
But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was sometimes different -
out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few actual parish
buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at Heimthal in particular
wasn't built until after my family left there in 1894.) So history shows
that the Lutherans many times were married, or baptized USING A CATHOLIC
CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was better than none church!
The Catholic church records are said to be thorough; I don't know
procedure to get to the records, so I have not done this search. Should. I am
missing protestant baptism records that were not found at St. Pete's.
I haven't done research to see what the population was in Volhynia for
Catholics. Should do that, too. That would be interesting. I know that Jewish
farmers were rare. The Jews were generally business men and ran almost all
of the factories in the full Volhynia region when my ancestors were there
(100 some factories, and more than 100 run by Jews - I forget the
statistic). Just a small % of the Jews were "farmers", (if I remember, like 3%) and
they were generally owners of larger estates.
I tried to do some research on local Judaism because some cousins think
that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and perhaps converted in Heimthal.
This thought is held because of old photos and whisperings in the family
years ago. But I have had no luck finding Bonderman(n) history. Even had a
Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in his records, but can't seem to
find the surname Bonderman anywhere near. Weichman(n) families held
Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic doesn't hold that there would
be a peasant Jewish family in with all the German peasants/farmers - for
love and marriage to happen...
New thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German
Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics! hmmm.
(Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my German
Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a "Russian".
Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they went. hah)
My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they hated Poles. The
Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on the streets of
Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were jailed if you
did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in Bromberg
then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way longer than
the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early 1860s. We
assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more peasant
rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat itself.
Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 15:52:28 -0500
From: Linda Bowen <lindakbowen at cox.net>
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
Message-ID: <5234CC8C.4070200 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Sorry if I gave the impression that I was checking those records for
Jewishness. I'm interested in expanding his family to further my
research. That is why I'm going to
look at Catholic records for the area. I'm dreading it because I've
found the Catholic records to be a lot worse to look at, mainly
because they tend to have those long Polish names that I don't recognize
and so they don't pop out as easily as the familiar German
names.
My mother's family is proving to be very difficult. It sure would be
nice to get them out of Volhynia .
On 9/14/2013 3:29 PM, Jerry Frank wrote:
> The records will confirm any theories you have though I don't know if a
mixed marriage would ever be recorded at a Jewish synagogue. An important
thing to remember is that recording at authorized churches or synagogues
pre WW I was mandated in Russian Poland. That same mandate did not exist in
Volhynia.
>
> The sound of a name, the shape of a nose, nor any other of the other
often thought of indicators do not imply Jewish heritage. I have seen all
kinds of reasons given for a supposed Jewish heritage. A lot of people insist
I must be Jewish because of my surname but it simply isn't true. Now a
letter written in Yiddish by a family member as reported by Kenneth Browne in
a previous message, that may be a different matter. Here you have some
kind of physical evidence. For a typical German, Yiddish might be used to
communicate at a market town but not in a letter. I would not rely on a
close dna match telling you about Jewish connections. She may be just as
misinformed as many others are. I don't want to discourage your research. I
just don't want others jumping on the same bandwagon based on vague notions.
>
> As for Ashkenazi roots, I think almost everyone with east European
connections shows some percentage of Ashkenazi roots. It however proves nothing
in terms of Jewishness. If it were possible to check the dna of an
ancestor from 1000 years ago, you might find that the percentage has not changed
much because other factors have changed a lot.
>
> I am not anti-Jewish. I just find that some people (not necessarily
you) have an unusual obsession with a need to be Jewish in some way and good
research time gets wasted in going in that direction.
>
> Jerry Frank
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Linda Bowen" <lindakbowen at cox.net>
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 1:33:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
>
> I have ordered a Catholic records film for Ostrog. My second great
> grandfather on my mother's side was Polish. I'm hoping I might find
> information on his family in these records.
> The film is back ordered so it may be awhile before I get it.
> I became involved in my family history because of him. Jaruschewitz
> sounded like a very Jewish name to me.
>
> My great grandmother's baptismal records indicates he was Catholic and a
> settler.
> My grandmother was horrified when my uncle became engaged to a Catholic
> girl. I'm not sure she realized that her grandfather was Catholic.
> They ended up not getting married and in the end he married a nice"
> German girl" with Volhynian roots.
>
> I had my autosomal DNA done at ancestry and then uploaded my raw data
> to GEDmatch and to FTDNA.
> My younger brother tested for YDNA and MTDNA at FTDNA
> My autosomal DNA really surprised me when it gave me a mix that
> included only 7% central Europe.
> It turns out I'm a real mutt, roughly 1/4 British Isles, 1/4
> Scandinavian , 31 % eastern Europe and 11% Volga-ural.
>
> One of my best matches on GEDmatch and also on FTDNA told me that some
> of my fairly close matches are Jewish.
> My brother's YDNA is more prevalent in eastern Europe than it is in
> Germany and several of the matches for his YDNA indicate they may be
> Askenazi Jews.
>
> Message for Lynda Radke.
> One of my 4th cousin matches on ancestry has the name Radke from
> Wladymir Wolynsk area.
> Wilhelm Radke married Eva Kreuger
> There is a Gustav Radke born in 1885, Emil Radke born in 1890 . Emil
> married Olga Hammerling.
> Radke is a very common name in Volhynia, but just thought I'd mention
> these names in case something fits.
>
>
>
> On 9/14/2013 11:51 AM, Jerry Frank wrote:
>> I have not heard of Lutherans being registered in Catholic churches in
Volhynia. If any readers find such records, please let us know. Most
certainly they did so in Russian Poland, not because they wanted a church
connection but because they were mandated to do so by the government as long as
there was no Lutheran church nearby to accommodate the registration. Jews
also registered at Catholic churches until their synagogues were given
permission to do registrations, I think in the 1830s or so. Mennonites
registered at Lutheran or Catholic churches because they were not officially
recognized as a church.
>>
>> In Volhynia, government regulations were more lax, at least until the
1890s. Although parish buildings were few and far between, a Betshaus
(literally prayer house) was a common entity. Registration was done through the
local Lutheran Kantor (lay preacher / teacher) which most communities, or
groups of communities, had. He was authorized to perform baptisms, conduct
funerals, and teach confirmation class. Only the pastor could serve
communion and perform marriages. When the pastor came through the area, he
would copy the Kantorate records into the official church book. The Kantor did
not always do a good job. I recall seeing a note on one of the pages of
St. Pete records where the pastor was decrying the poor quality and accuracy
of the records he had received from a Kantor.
>> If some records for a particular event are missing in Volhynia, it is
not generally because they are recorded at a Catholic church but rather that
the Kantor missed the entry, the pastor missed copying it, a book for a
particular period of time is missing, etc.
>>
>> German Catholics in Volhynia were quite rare. Those there were often
in the cities, occupied in some special trade rather than in farming.
>>
>> Jews in Volhynia were not large estate owners. They were not permitted
to own land in the 19th century. They were numerous in number, being part
of the Pale of Settlement. I don't know the percentage of farmers vs.
tradesmen but for those that were farmers, think "Fiddler on the Roof".
>>
>> Rumors of Jewish connections seem to abound among Germans from Russia
but I have never seen any verified stories of such a connection. Don't
forget that Jews did not use surnames until mandated to do so by Napoleon in
the late 1700s. It is far more likely that they adapted or adopted a German
surname than that they are your ancestor. I am not saying that the
possibility should never be explored but if other options remain open to you,
consider them first. I am not aware of any particular history that suggests
that German Lutherans married Jews, certainly no more so than that they
married a Catholic, a Pole, a Ukrainian or any other faith or ethnicity. Such
events occurred but they were very rare in the 19th century or earlier.
>>
>> And finally two comments from the other part of the thread. The
Vistula Germans tag is commonly applied to those Germans who lived along the
Wisla River east of Thorn and on to Warsaw. As of 1815, this territory became
part of Russian Poland so after that year there would be no migration of
Vistula Germans to Russian Poland. They were already part of it.
>>
>> And regarding Germans being known as Russians after 1854 - this was not
the case. They always remained German by ethnicity (of course often
adapting some local customs and food items along the way). But they became
Russian as a nationality based on the controlling power at the time. For
example, in 1921, the Germans in western Volhynia who had been Russian, now
became Polish.
>>
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Charlotte Dubay" <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
>> To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
>> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:45:57 AM
>> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Catholic Poles and Lutheran Germans
>>
>>
>>
>> Linda Susak wrote on Sept 14, 2013:
>>
>> In my family, Vistula Germans, before they moved to Russian Poland
sometime after 1860s, the difference was between Catholic and Lutheran. The
people married each other or people from other German villages. It was a
great "sin" to marry a Pole because he/she was Catholic. One sibling of my
grandmother did this, and the family never spoke to him again. He was
totally ostracized from the community.
>>
>>
>> From: Krampetz at aol.com
>> To: hoeserhistory at aol.com, ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
>> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 8:56:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German Prussians vs German Russians
>>
>> There are two kinds of Germans from Russia too..
>> Those that were from Russia (Volhynia) and
>> Those from Poland, who gave Russia as their home.
>> -because they were told they were Russian sometime after
1854(?)
>>
>> Char writes:
>> Yes, prejudice between Catholics and German Lutherans ran deep. (I
married a Catholic, and they loved him, but hated it when I "converted"- big to
do on both sides - and this was in early 50s!)
>>
>> But actually in Heimthal and Volhynia area it was sometimes different -
out of necessity. As I previously wrote, there were few actual parish
buildings for church attendance. (The brick manse/church at Heimthal in
particular wasn't built until after my family left there in 1894.) So history
shows that the Lutherans many times were married, or baptized USING A CATHOLIC
CHURCH! Guess they figured it out: some church was better than none church!
>>
>> The Catholic church records are said to be thorough; I don't know
procedure to get to the records, so I have not done this search. Should. I am
missing protestant baptism records that were not found at St. Pete's.
>>
>> I haven't done research to see what the population was in Volhynia for
Catholics. Should do that, too. That would be interesting. I know that
Jewish farmers were rare. The Jews were generally business men and ran almost
all of the factories in the full Volhynia region when my ancestors were
there (100 some factories, and more than 100 run by Jews - I forget the
statistic). Just a small % of the Jews were "farmers", (if I remember, like 3%)
and they were generally owners of larger estates.
>>
>> I tried to do some research on local Judaism because some cousins think
that our ggrandmother's family was Jewish, and perhaps converted in
Heimthal. This thought is held because of old photos and whisperings in the
family years ago. But I have had no luck finding Bonderman(n) history. Even had
a Jewish genealogist do some checking for me in his records, but can't seem
to find the surname Bonderman anywhere near. Weichman(n) families held
Christian baptisms way back into history. And logic doesn't hold that there
would be a peasant Jewish family in with all the German peasants/farmers -
for love and marriage to happen...
>>
>> New thought: isn't it strange that there is history shown that German
Lutherans married Jews, but held such animosity toward Polish Catholics!
hmmm. (Prejudice toward Poles was also very great in the Dakotahs as my German
Lutheran ancestors arrived there. Couldn't date a "Polack" - or a
"Russian". Guess that they took their opinions with them wherever they went. hah)
>>
>> My ggrandfather lived in Bromberg as a child, and they hated Poles. The
Prussian government would not allow Polish to be spoken on the streets of
Bromberg just prior to my ancestors leaving the area. You were jailed if
you did. No churches, or Polish schools were allowed to be built in Bromberg
then, even though Poles were the majority and had been there way longer
than the Germans (which you all probably know...). This was in early 1860s. We
assume that his father died in the 1848 wars for "freedom" and more
peasant rights. History seems ironic - and certainly seems to repeat itself.
>>
>>
>> Charlotte DuBay
>> hoeserhistory at aol.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 17:22:19 -0400
From: "Hart @ Hilda" <hhennig at sympatico.ca>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org>
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Unsubscribe Please
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP786FE70C23816342BAEECADA240 at phx.gbl>
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Please unsubscribe
Thank you
Hart Hennig
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 18:23:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charlotte Dubay <hoeserhistory at aol.com>
To: ger-poland-volhynia at sggee.org
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] churches in Vohlynia
Message-ID: <8D07FB022F9480F-768-1E16B at webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
John Marsh wrote on Sep 14, 2013;
According to the publication Die Evangelisch-Lutherischen Gemeinden in
Russland printed in 1909 ("The Evangelical Lutheran Parishes in Russia"),
the cornerstone for a wooden Lutheran church was laid in Heimtal in 1873,
followed by the consecration on the 20th of August 1878. It was some time
later that the old manse was replaced with a new stone manse however.
John,
Thanks for the heads up on marriage dates available to us. I will have to
buy a membership so I can search.
And yes, that is what I had read also - except that I understood it as
this: The wooden "church" structures that they built (and not only at
Heimthal) were not considered "parishes" or "parish churches". They were considered
"chapels". And one Lutheran pastor had so many to attend to that his
sometimes would only visit a "chapel" once in a year. I believe that there were
10,000 worshipers who attended the stone Zhitomir Parish at this time.
Pastor Wasen whom I earlier wrote about lived in the stone manse there in
Zhitomir. And the chapels' services were often times conducted by lay people (or
as Jerry pointed out, sometimes by kantors - if they had enough men.)
Like much of European history and geography at the time, it is so muddy.
Names change, places change hands, people move, people are called by
different "names"...etc. I think it is so interesting, but as I tell all of my
cousins who are not involved in genealogy research, nothing is set in stone.
(I also always preface my work with "These are my facts - until I find new
data". That is not copyrighted so you are welcome to use it. hah)
BTW, some family cousins get very upset with me. I find a record where
their loved one's name is spelled differently, or their birthplace is
questioned, and my cousins want me to use the data that THEY "know is right". I
tell them that I cannot/willnot change the records that I find, but will
include both dates, names, or whatever. Not so good for me! (One cousin keeps
telling me that their father "spelled his name wrong" until he was 21!)
Gotta laugh!
Charlotte DuBay
hoeserhistory at aol.com
------------------------------
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