[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?

Wed Sep 11 21:29:18 PDT 2013

>>Read your Epistle to the Non-believers, and am still left with the 
>> major question of: How in the world does this DNA thing link you or 
>> me to the past people long gone without them having provided a sample 
>> spit, or whatever?????.
>> Dan B.

Dan,
I will try to answer your question shortly but some explanation is needed. I am a biochemist and thus know molecular biology so the principles I will describe are well within my expertise to comment on.
 For genealogical purposes generally two kinds of DNA markers are used: 1) mitochondrial (mt) DNA which is inherited maternally and 2) Y-chromosome markers which are inherited paternally and only present in males. All other markers come from autosomal DNA or the X chromosome and subject to a process called recombination meaning the maternal and paternal DNA can be intermixed when passed to the next generation. Thus autosomal  markers cannot be tracked by their source so for now only mt and Y DNA only give us information we can conclude on its source.
The markers you have are virtually all shared by others but the combination of markers you have can show great differences among the population and what helps distinguish us.  So if you have mt markers that match someone elses that is an indication you may be related to that person through maternal lineages. The same reasoning holds for Y-chromosome markers. 
Now if your name was Krueger we could try to see if we MAY BE related through our paternal lineages since Y-markers follow along with the surname unless something otherwise happens like illegitimate birth or adoption. Jerry Frank had relatives living in a region of Poland where my Frank ancestors also lived back in the early 1800s. Since we lack records to take our generations further back how might I determine if Jerry and I have common descendancy? I don’t carry the Frank Y chromosome. I could get one of my Frank 2nd cousins to test his Y-DNA and do the same with Jerry.  If we see a virtually identical representation of the markers used that would suggest we are related. But we cannot determine how far back that would go. It would only suggest we have a common male Frank ancestor somewhere in our history.
Now that I said all this I want to bring us out of the 20th century into the 21st century. DNA sequencing technology has come a long way to the point where now it has become relatively affordable to sequence your entire genome for $1000. I have heard the older members say they have no interest in this since they likely won’t get anything out of this.  I plan to do this eventually. It will provide your complete DNA sequence and all those former markers are just a needle in the haystack of all the information you get.  The more people that will do this now the more benefit we will get out of it for ourselves for genealogical comparisons. But the information will be available for future generations where likely everyone will be getting complete genome sequencing done just like we all get our blood typed.  If your wife and your children get it done you could determine exactly what segments of DNA your children inherited from each of you. Go down to your
 grandchildren and you can see what genes of yours were passed down to them. Keep adding generations and now you are talking about having a complete picture of what your descendants inherited from you and their other ancestors. This is where the future is headed so do your descendants a favor and get your genome sequenced. I expect this will become readily available in the next few years.
Karl

________________________________
From: Gary Warner <garyw555 at gmail.com>
To: Gerald Klatt <gerald.klatt at shaw.ca> 
Cc: Otto <otto at schienke.com>; SGGEElistserv list <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?

To all,

DNA testing does not test your ancestors.  What it does is match your 
DNA to anyone else who has submitted their DNA to the same databank.  
By matching up DNA strands, they can determine if others in the same 
databank have a high probability of being your relative (i.e., similar 
DNA strands).  The DNA only gets to two people working together to 
determine how they are actually related.

I am no expert, but there are at least three different types of tests:

The Y-DNA test to search for the ancestry of your father's father's 
father's father (and so on).  So far as I know at present, it does not 
match you to anyone other than a descendant of that direct line of 
fathers, and is apparently only of use to determine which part of the 
world your pre-modern-era father's father came from.

Next is the mtDNA, and this only tracks the ancestry of your mother's 
mother's mother's mother (etc).  It is likewise only good to determine 
which part of the world your pre-modern era mother's mother came from.

Finally, there is the Autosomal DNA.  This DNA test is used to 
determine who your relatives are, both male and female, for the last 
five to six generations.    This is the test that I had done, and the 
company called My Family Tree DNA (https://my.familytreedna.com/) found 
matches for me to look at.  I was a bit leary as to how this all 
worked, so in addition to my DNA, all that I gave them was my direct 
line surnames, and the countries where they resided.  I got back a lot 
of results that look primising, but so far have only been able to 
determine a relationship for one of those results.  The link that I 
found was not a direct line ancestor surname, but rather the great 
grandson of my grandfather's sister.  The predicted relationship was a 
4th cousin, but he is actually my 2nd cousin, twice removed.  I guess 
if you figure that both relationships are 4 times removed from me, then 
the predicton was correct.  The other relationships have not yet been 
proven, but that is likely only because the people I am matched to do 
not know enough of their (and my) genealogy to figure it out yet.

Gary Warner
Gig Harbor, WA

On 9/11/2013 12:25 PM, Gerald Klatt wrote:
> Same question from me. I eagerly wait the reply.
>
> Gerald
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Buss" <dbuss at rogers.com>
> To: "Otto" <otto at schienke.com>; "SGGEElistserv list" 
> <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
>
>
>> Hello Otto,
>> Read your Epistle to the Non-believers, and am still left with the 
>> major question of: How in the world does this DNA thing link you or 
>> me to the past people long gone without them having provided a sample 
>> spit, or whatever?????.
>> Dan B.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Otto" <otto at schienke.com>
>> To: "SGGEElistserv list" <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:52 AM
>> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DNA Testing?
>>
>>
>>> Good morning Listers!
>>> The question has been asked many times.  I've wanted to submit a 
>>> reply but did not take time to do so. . . so many e-letters to type.
>>> But then, perhaps I just procrastinate.
>>>
>>> I know there are many on the List and also SGGEE members who have 
>>> taken the test I am discussing here, one I feel is a helper to 
>>> paper-trail research. The participants can speak for themselves. I 
>>> am willing to answer questions limited to this test and its use but 
>>> will do so privately.
>>>
>>> I am involved in both paper-trail and DNA research and receive the 
>>> same delight from a new paper record of a past relative of mine as 
>>> from a DNA match without a paper. The signature of a g.g.g. 
>>> grandfather on paper, Wow.-the DNA genetic shift because of just one 
>>> marital union, Wow.
>>> This is today, we cannot have the chicken without the egg. Both is 
>>> better. Like a right and left hand washing dishes. SGGEE and 
>>> 23andMe, a symbiotic relationship.
>>>
>>> The question that has come to the fore ofttimes, "Of what value is 
>>> DNA testing?
>>> There must be a value because the field is growing tremendously.
>>>
>>> DNA testing proves to be an adjunct to paper-trail research.
>>> Paper-trail research proves to be an adjunct to DNA trail research.
>>> I see no difference between the two. . . except DNA records are more 
>>> accurate.
>>>
>>> Paper-trail offers a written legal pedigree, that is, in accordance 
>>> with all the relevant rules.
>>> DNA offers a biological pedigree (we must view ourselves as a lump 
>>> of information, code; no bluffing in the code).
>>> I always think of a stateside cartoon series (the funny paper) of 
>>> the past; Popeye, the sailer-man and his saying, "I yam what I yam 
>>> and tha's all what I yam."  So goes it with DNA testing.
>>>
>>> "What benefit is DNA testing for paper-trail genealogy?"
>>> Civil paper records "state" I am my father's son. They are my legal 
>>> identification.
>>> *note: A woman on the DNA site enjoyed the test so much (all of that 
>>> info!) but not possessing a Y chromosome (female are X~X, no male 
>>> Y~X) badgered her paper-trail father into taking the test, paid for 
>>> it as a stimulus. He finally agreed. She waited impatiently for the 
>>> results-they finally arrived!  No match. . . not your father. . 
>>> .Time to talk to Mom.
>>> DNA biological records prove it out. They are biological 
>>> identification.
>>> DNA testing has released many persons wrongly convicted on criminal 
>>> charges.
>>>
>>> Types of DNA testing:
>>> "STR" testing for "Haplotype" will prove out that I am my son's father.
>>> Short Tandem Repeats -STR, a favorite in forensics.
>>>
>>> and 23andMe spit-testing
>>> "SNP" testing for "Haplogroup" (23andme) will provide a 23 
>>> chromosome, 1,000,000 + markers big picture test leading into the 
>>> distant past.
>>> Single Nucleotide polymorphism -SNPs,  valuable in study of disease 
>>> development and critical in personalized medicine. For genealogy 
>>> purposes it provides a 23 chromosome based view of what genes a 
>>> person is knit from.
>>>
>>> -It creates a "Y-Haplogroup", based on the Y chromosome which 
>>> contains markers passed from father to father to father into the 
>>> distant past.
>>>
>>> My Y-Haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a1*, the base group is "R" and each 
>>> character after the initial R represents a mutation, for example, 
>>> 1-b-1-b-2-a-1-a-1-*,  the asterisk marks an as of yet unclassified 
>>> mutation.  I refer to it as Mother Nature's latest software code 
>>> update.
>>>
>>> -it creates a mtDNA-Haplogroup, based on the DNA of mitochondria in 
>>> the red blood cells, passed from mother to mother to mother and so 
>>> on into the distant past.
>>>
>>> My mtDNA-Haplogroup is H1, the base group is "H" and each character 
>>> after the initial H represents a mutation.
>>>
>>> So. . . What has it offered me besides my health scenario. . . (Yo! 
>>> Mon!-Sheesh, I thought so. . . now I know it for sure and live 
>>> accordingly)
>>> Health includes Health Risks, Drug Response, Inherited Conditions, 
>>> Traits, Health Tools
>>>
>>> DNA testing pointed me to the shorelines of the North Sea and 
>>> beyond, laying claim to being an ancient inhabitant of Doggerland, 
>>> now lying beneath the North Sea since the last glacial meltdown.  
>>> This immediately redirected my paper-trail research to the Baltic 
>>> Sea coast and west to the North Sea coast.  The "Cluster Effect" 
>>> came to the fore as I searched for similar peoples moving along the 
>>> coast to eastern territories. I am making headway-"can't know where 
>>> you are going until you know where you coming from."
>>>
>>> What else did genetic testing with 23andme provide for me?
>>> -It provided me with my "Ancestry Composition"- My mixed gene bag of 
>>> who I really am. Amazing!
>>> -It provided me with my "Maternal Line" History (research can also 
>>> be conducted online (google, Wiki,etc) using just the haplogroup 
>>> characters)
>>> -It provided me with my "Paternal Line" History (ditto)
>>> -It provide me with my "Neanderthal Ancestry" (2.6%. . . my deceased 
>>> wife always accused me of carrying some markers-I accused her family 
>>> of carrying many markers. . . her brother tested Y-haplogroup 
>>> R1b1b2a1a1. . . @ 2.9% Neanderthal (yeh! I knew it!)
>>> Well, I at least remain the latest haplogroup update. . .*)
>>>
>>> -"Ancestry Tools" box has a variety of algorithms to play with-I 
>>> like "Global Similarity."
>>>
>>> -It provided me (to date)  "DNA Relatives.", with 766 biological 
>>> relatives.
>>> Some are paper-trail verified-(They must also be spit-tested and 
>>> part of the database group.)
>>> A few verified paper-trailers follow:
>>> I ran 23andme application ("Family Traits" algorithm) and tested 
>>> myself against myself. . . Yup! 100% me.  "I yam what I yam and 
>>> tha's all what I yam."
>>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 
>>> son. . .50% me. (it is my son!)
>>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 
>>> first cousin. .  Yup! 1st cousin maternal side!
>>> I ran their application (algorithm) and tested myself against my 3rd 
>>> cousin. . . 3rd cousin he is!
>>>
>>> -Without a present day paper-trail ID, in  "DNA Relatives.", Norman 
>>> Radke rates as a 5th cousin, his offspring rate as cousins, Donald 
>>> Miller rates as a 5th cousin, Earl Schultz rates as a 10th cousin 
>>> and so on. Albert Muth and I are very similar genetically but not 
>>> part of a direct line of descent even though Albert is also a cousin 
>>> to Donald Miller. . . and Meta Fife.
>>>
>>> This is just the beginning. Many more names will be added to the  
>>> "DNA Relatives" relative list.  Once a DNA connection is 
>>> established, contact must be established and a paper-trail 
>>> connection needs to be made.  In checking the 23andme site for the 
>>> number of cousins, I noticed another close female relative I have 
>>> the paper-trail for. . . Gotta write to her.
>>>
>>> -It provides me with my "Gene Comparison" to the rest of the 23andme 
>>> group. ( birds of a feather do flock together)
>>>
>>> It provides me with my "Family Traits", an application, (algorithm) 
>>> which I use to compare my genes with all who have agreed to share 
>>> with me at 23andme. Your  actual DNA code is never seen by others 
>>> and vice-versa. 23andme computer algorithms do the work for you. 
>>> Quickly.
>>>
>>> -One can also participate in their research. . .  With paper-trail 
>>> and DNA trail pursuits, my time is limited.
>>>
>>> -A "Community Site" and "Blog" exists for answers to questions.
>>>
>>> . . .  Otto
>>>        " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 01, 2013-
>>>                _____________________________________
>>>                  "Answers out there . . .  Seeking us."
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia site list
>>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia at sggee.org
>>> https://www.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
>>>
>>
>>
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