[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] germans from russia from ukraine and so on

[John Bettger]

Per institution of Napoleonic civil registration
My ancestors came from Worms to South Prussia. While researching records in Worms I was surprised to see where they suddenly changed to French in compliance with Napoleonic civil registration. Of course Napoleon had conquered Bavaria.

Best Regards
John Leon Bettger
email address  ceo at ametric.com

Researching Waterloo South Russia (Stavki Ukraine) Odessa (city) South Russia (Odessa Ukraine) at 67 Ekaterininskaya Square (at the top of Potemkin Steps) Slowik (near Lodz) Koenigreich Poland/South Prussia, Gruenstadt Bavaria (Worms Germany), Westlau Germany,  Neubrandenburg, Mecklenburg-Strelitz Prussia/Germany

NAMES: Bettger, Boettcher, Huhn, Schindler, Heuter


-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Albert Muth
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 3:30 PM
To: Richard Benert
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] germans from russia from ukraine and so on

Short Summary:  History of our ancestral areas does NOT begin with the partitions of Poland.  The Russian domination of the ancestral areas of many members of SGGEE was a brief, 19th and early 20th c. aberration.

Before the partitions, the Ukraine had been under POLISH rule for the previous few centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth  Under Russian rule in the 19th century, yes, I agree very much with Dick that the area of the Ukraine was "better"
incorporated into Russia than
was the Congress Kingdom of Poland.

The so called geographical concept that many of you are using as Poland (kingdom of Poland) *dates only from the * *Congress of Vienna,* see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_Poland.
Before 1795, the concept of Poland included what is now Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, and the Ukraine.  There was NO concept of Ukrainian nationality or statehood at this time.  Please do not misunderstand me; the Ukrainian language had been developing naturally over time, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Language, particularly the section on "History of the Ukrainian spoken language's usage".

At 1795, long before very few, if any, of us had ancestors living in the area now in the Ukraine, one needs to understand the terminology and geography of South Prussia (*Südpreußen*), Polish *Prusy Południowe* and New East Prussia (*Neuostpreußen*, Polish *Prusy nowowschodnie*).  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Prussia and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_East_Prussia

There are genealogical consequences for this particular point in history for Germans moving into the area now in Poland and then later into the Ukraine.
As Prussia grew over the 18th century (1700's), annexing Silesia in 1742 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia), it created more and more military parishes (Lutheran, usually, I think).  There are far more than I can name, but I see Breslau from 1723, Ohlau from 1720, Neustadt from 1732...

After the first partition, I see Thorn from 1773, Bromberg from 1774, Graudenz from 1773....  Indeed, even the number of regular Evangelical Lutheran churches explodes, as witnessed by their dates of foundation.  In most 18th century in the Posen area, the churches were already in existence.  But starting in 1772, we see the founding, in chronological order of Evangelical churches at:  Crone, Czarnikau, Labischen, Bromberg, Margonin, Schönlanke, Kolmar, Bnin, Hammer-Borui, Koschmin, Ostrowo, Resen, Sandberg, Obornik, Zirke, Bentschen, Neustadt b. Pinne, Santomischel, Tirschtiegel, Friedheim, Luschwitz, Neutomischel, Krosno, Rogasen, Wreschen, Wronke....  These, only in the 1770's.

And then, in the 1780's, 11 more.
In the 1790's, 9 more.

In 1795, and what should interest a great many of SGGEE members, begins the parishes of Kalisz (where there are many, many soldiers listed), Warszawa from 1793, Włocławek from 1796-1806, Petrikau from 1799-1806, Sieradz 1796-1806, Przasnysz 1802-1806 .....

Interesting that many end in 1806.  Because now, this area is now called the Duchy of Warsaw.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Warsaw.  In genealogy, we see the institution of Napoleonic civil registration, see https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Poland_Civil_Registration-_Vital_Records and our own SGGEE page at http://www.sggee.org/research/translation_aids AND http://www.sggee.org/research/parishes/lublin_records/record_types.html
In this period, many of our people recorded their births and marriages, sometimes deaths, at Catholic churches.

Genealogically, I thought I understood the difference between Westpreußen and Ostpreußen, but this too is only a 19th century concept.  The wikipedia article on West Prussia says it existed 1773-1824 and 1878-1919/20 ONLY.

Revisionist historians are telling me that the two should be distinguished as Royal Prussia and Ducal Prussia, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Prussia and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducal_Prussia.

And given the special interest many, many of you seem to have in categorizng nationalties, I recommend that you download Philippe Ther's 2003 article in *Central European History* volume 46, pp. 45-73 called "Beyond the Nation:
The Relational Basis of a Comparatve History of Germany and Europe".

Just google:  Ther Beyond Nation Relational and you will see several options for downloading a PDF file.  I highly recommend it.  Very thought-provoking.

Happy reading.


Al

P.S.  No test on this. I promise!

P.P.S.  And please, please, start thinking of volunteering to index some of these military parish records for SGGEE (the aforementioned Kalisz (I am already working on the marriages), Warszawa, Włocławek, Petrikau, Sieradz, Przasnysz






On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Richard Benert <benovich at imt.net> wrote:

> Thanks to Jerry and Dave for clarifying things.  I would only add that
> up to 1921, yes, Poland and Ukraine were part of the Russian Empire,
> but in different ways.  I think that Ukraine was more integrated into
> the Russian system of government since it had not been a "unified"
> kingdom (as Poland had been) before being taken over piecemeal by the
> Russians.  Russia was able to pretty much define the terms and send in
> its colonists.  On the other hand, Poland was originally given a fair
> amount of independence immediately after the Partitions, and the
> Russian government had to chip away at this throughout the 19th
> century, being given good excuses to do so by the Polish Revolts of
> 1830 and 1863.  Also, Russians took a very different attitude towards
> Poles than it did towards Ukrainians.  Poles were Catholic and
> western-oriented and very much disliked and distrusted, while
> Ukrainians were thought of more or less as lost little brothers who
> merely needed to be coaxed into realizing that they, too, were Russians at heart.
> So, unless you are an avid Ukrainian nationalist, you can feel
> perfectly justified in calling your "Ukrainian/Volhynian born"
> grandparents "Russian Germans." The case is less clear with regard to
> Polish-born Germans.  Don't we in our minds think of them as "Germans
> from Poland" rather than as "Russian Germans"?  But then again, the
> very idea of a "Polish German" has been anathema ever since the
> purveyors of Deutschtum began, between the wars, to bemoan the existence of so many "polonized" Germans.
>
> Because Poland had this veneer of being somewhat separate from Russia
> even though within its Empire, our ancestors from there could give
> their place of birth as "Poland" as well as "Russia."  I sometimes
> wonder if the choice for "Poland" was sometimes made because it was
> not thought to be so degrading to be from Poland as it was to be from
> Russia.  Poland had a higher culture.
> Russians knew this and it bothered them a lot.  Several people have
> indicated their ancestors' reluctance to admit having come from
> Russia.  I ran into this, too, years ago when interviewing people in
> my home church in St. Paul.  I got the feeling (perhaps unwarranted)
> that the Russian Germans in the church felt a bit inferior to the
> German Germans, and so they kept their origins quiet.  I'd like to
> know if others agree with me that some of our ancestors simply felt
> embarrassed at having come out of that backwater land of Russia.  Maybe this, too, could be part of a convention session.
>
> Dick Benert
>
>
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