[Ger-Poland-Volhynia] germans from russia from ukraine and so on

Fri Feb 11 10:20:02 PST 2011

Thanks to Jerry and Dave for clarifying things.  I would only add that up to 
1921, yes, Poland and Ukraine were part of the Russian Empire, but in 
different ways.  I think that Ukraine was more integrated into the Russian 
system of government since it had not been a "unified" kingdom (as Poland 
had been) before being taken over piecemeal by the Russians.  Russia was 
able to pretty much define the terms and send in its colonists.  On the 
other hand, Poland was originally given a fair amount of independence 
immediately after the Partitions, and the Russian government had to chip 
away at this throughout the 19th century, being given good excuses to do so 
by the Polish Revolts of 1830 and 1863.  Also, Russians took a very 
different attitude towards Poles than it did towards Ukrainians.  Poles were 
Catholic and western-oriented and very much disliked and distrusted, while 
Ukrainians were thought of more or less as lost little brothers who merely 
needed to be coaxed into realizing that they, too, were Russians at heart. 
So, unless you are an avid Ukrainian nationalist, you can feel perfectly 
justified in calling your "Ukrainian/Volhynian born" grandparents "Russian 
Germans." The case is less clear with regard to Polish-born Germans.  Don't 
we in our minds think of them as "Germans from Poland" rather than as 
"Russian Germans"?  But then again, the very idea of a "Polish German" has 
been anathema ever since the purveyors of Deutschtum began, between the 
wars, to bemoan the existence of so many "polonized" Germans.

Because Poland had this veneer of being somewhat separate from Russia even 
though within its Empire, our ancestors from there could give their place of 
birth as "Poland" as well as "Russia."  I sometimes wonder if the choice for 
"Poland" was sometimes made because it was not thought to be so degrading to 
be from Poland as it was to be from Russia.  Poland had a higher culture. 
Russians knew this and it bothered them a lot.  Several people have 
indicated their ancestors' reluctance to admit having come from Russia.  I 
ran into this, too, years ago when interviewing people in my home church in 
St. Paul.  I got the feeling (perhaps unwarranted) that the Russian Germans 
in the church felt a bit inferior to the German Germans, and so they kept 
their origins quiet.  I'd like to know if others agree with me that some of 
our ancestors simply felt embarrassed at having come out of that backwater 
land of Russia.  Maybe this, too, could be part of a convention session.

Dick Benert

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Dave Obee" <daveobee at shaw.ca>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 9:19 AM
To: "Beth Burke" <mackzie at earthlink.net>
Cc: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] germans from russia from ukraine and so 
on

> I did a session on 'Where the heck is Volhynia' in Calgary in 2007. It 
> covered this ground and more. So yes, I think it is a good topic!
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Beth Burke <mackzie at earthlink.net>
> Date: Friday, February 11, 2011 5:29
> Subject: RE: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] germans from russia from ukraine and so 
> on
> To: 'Dave Obee' <daveobee at shaw.ca>, ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
>
>> Would this be a good topic for a convention session?  It
>> seems to have
>> caught the attention of quite a few people online, so maybe it's
>> somethingworth covering by one of SGGEE's experts.
>>
>> Just a thought....
>>
>>
>> Beth Burke
>> Verona, WI
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
>> [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf
>> Of Dave
>> Obee
>> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 1:49 AM
>> To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
>> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] germans from russia from ukraine
>> and so on
>>
>> Interesting discussion on how to refer to Volhynians, although I
>> think it is
>> important that we don't get too bogged down in too much detail
>> on the basic
>> points.
>>
>> The ethnic Germans living in Volhynia can be called Germans from
>> Russia, or
>> Russian Germans, or German Russians, and so on. I also agree
>> with Jerry
>> Frank when he says that context is important. To that end, when
>> we talk
>> about Volhynian ancestry, we should note that about 98 per cent
>> of the old
>> Volhynia gubernia is in present-day Ukraine. The German families
>> in Volhynia
>> were German Russians, living in what is now Ukraine. Simple.
>>
>> Beyond that, I think there are some other generalizations that
>> should be
>> avoided. It cannot be said that Poland or Ukraine did not exist
>> in the 19th
>> century; they did. They came under the Russian Empire, and were not
>> independent countries as they are today, but there can be no
>> doubt that they
>> existed.
>>
>> In the same way, when I visited the Soviet Union in 1985, well before
>> Ukraine became independent, Kiev (now Kyiv) was the capital of
>> Ukraine, as
>> it is now -- although now, Ukraine is a country on its own. I
>> have been to
>> Volhynia a half-dozen times since independence, and every time,
>> it's been in
>> Ukraine. It would be wrong to talk about Volhynia without
>> telling people
>> where it is. Context matters.
>>
>> Also, the statement that Volhynians were Polish citizens between
>> the wars is
>> not correct. Western Volhynia came under Poland, eastern
>> Volhynia came under
>> the Soviet Union.
>>
>> Dave Obee
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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